No Union Flag on athletics kits

[Rhiannon]

IIRC correctly in the team competitions there are no individual medals (eg IAAF World Cup). In the major championships there's just a medal table. This is a list of some stars from the World Championships - no mention of a team result.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAAF_World_Championships_in_Athletics

So although the perception is (and becoming more so thanks to marketing) that there is a GB team competing, there is no team award, just placings on a medal table.

One thing I don't know is if club competitions have a team element. Obviously the elite athletes will compete on the Grand Prix circuit which is purely commercial. But many of our lower tier athletes will only compete in British athletics and I don't know how important the team element is at that level.

[ProfessorDavey]

IIRC correctly in the team competitions there are no individual medals (eg IAAF World Cup).

Not even sure that is correct, and it has now become the IAAF Continents Cup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAAF_Continental_Cup

I the most recent event (2014) there does seem to be individual medals awarded as in other competitions - the overall 'result' is based on the IAAF scoring for top 8 places.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_IAAF_Continental_Cup

Others might comment, but my impression seems to be that this event doesn't really pull in the big hitters: for example look at the line up in the sprint finals and their times and compare with the 2013 world championship or 2012 olympics.

[Rhiannon]

It's one of those events that used to be worth watching, but it's now been superseded by the Grand Prix circuit.

[Udayana]

Lots of good points above.

I think what I'd like is to ditch all the national and international controlling bodies eg UK Athletics, FIFA, IOC, IAAF that are really self-serving and ultimately corrupt when big money is in play. The whole idea of national teams. Bernie Ecclestone too. Even the concept of local football clubs/teams seems rather silly nowadays given that most of the players and supporters are spread worldwide.


Would prefer something more cause/charity based - eg like the London Marathon, where organisations can put forward competitors to raise money for their causes. This could still all be supported by sponsorship (ie advertising) and media also lotteries etc, but we could do without building of grand stadiums, villages, roads and so on ... that are useless after the event. 

It is true that I haven't thought through how it would all work..

[Rhiannon]

Elite athletes get paid a mint to compete at the London Marathon. Even the drug cheats.

I think the lines between sport and entertainment are becoming increasingly blurred. The Grand Prix circuit in athletics is there to provide entertainment. The Premier League is entertainment - traditional football is found in the Championships or even lower. To stage an event as big as the Olympics requires vast amounts of money which in turn requires huge amounts of sponsorship.

But the grassroots plays a huge part in the wellbeing of ordinary people, whether through running clubs - UK Athletics/England Athletics cover events such as fell running and endurance racing too - or Sunday morning footie. Without the big events how would these get funding? Even my boy's village football team is regulated by the FA. Get rid of the governing bodies and you lose grassroots sport - ok, so people might still go for a run, but hurdling/javelin/discus for fun (ie club level) will die, and without clubs supporting junior athletes it will at the elite level also.

[Rhiannon]

Marathon appearance fees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59283-2005Apr16.html

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/apr/18/mo-farah-london-marathon-criticism

Suspicious results

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/09/seven-london-marathon-winners-in-12-years-doping-suspicion

[ProfessorDavey]

Lots of good points above.

I think what I'd like is to ditch all the national and international controlling bodies eg UK Athletics, FIFA, IOC, IAAF that are really self-serving and ultimately corrupt when big money is in play. The whole idea of national teams. Bernie Ecclestone too. Even the concept of local football clubs/teams seems rather silly nowadays given that most of the players and supporters are spread worldwide.


Would prefer something more cause/charity based - eg like the London Marathon, where organisations can put forward competitors to raise money for their causes. This could still all be supported by sponsorship (ie advertising) and media also lotteries etc, but we could do without building of grand stadiums, villages, roads and so on ... that are useless after the event. 

It is true that I haven't thought through how it would all work..

I don't have any problem with teams in team sports.

And once you need a team, such as in football, I also have no problem with having some competitions where they are club based, and not unreasonably based in towns and cities. It doesn't matter to me whether the players aren't local - it is the club that is historically based in a location, not the players who necessarily come and go.

Nor do I have a problem if some team game tournaments are based on countries with eligibility criteria. In fact I rather like the different approach this gives - that you cheer someone to the rafters when in their club shirt but not in the country shift and vice vera - all good fun and a natural extension for a team sport.

But I've always had a problem with trying to pretend that individual sports are team sports - more so that they are somehow country based teams. So Usain Bolt isn't really running for Jamaica - he is running to win as an individual, and he will do absolutely everything he can to beat some of his sternest rivals - who just happen also the be part of the same Jamaican 'team'. And they will be doing the same to beat him. It is an individual sport so no 'team' is required - just the individual competing against other individuals.

[Rhiannon]

I suppose this goes back to the days when athletics was an amateur sport and international competitions were reliant on national governments to fund the competitors. Even now national funding from government is replaced for the most part by national lottery funding - only the elite get sponsorship or advertising deals and they can be fickle, as Jo Pavey has discovered.

Contrast that with tennis, F1 and golf (traditionally the sports of the well-heeled) where government support has been minimal, at least here in the UK - for all we (supposedly) love to see a Brit win we don't think Andy Murray or Lewis Hamilton are competing for GB, except in certain events - Davis Cup, or Ryder Cup (although that is Europe and not GB).

[ProfessorDavey]

I suppose this goes back to the days when athletics was an amateur sport and international competitions were reliant on national governments to fund the competitors. Even now national funding from government is replaced for the most part by national lottery funding - only the elite get sponsorship or advertising deals and they can be fickle, as Jo Pavey has discovered.

Perhaps - no idea why athletics is different from other individual sports. But I think that's different now as athletics is professional and I think the top athletes can earn as much as many other sports - not the super rich sports but the same as plenty.

Contrast that with tennis, F1 and golf (traditionally the sports of the well-heeled) where government support has been minimal, at least here in the UK - for all we (supposedly) love to see a Brit win we don't think Andy Murray or Lewis Hamilton are competing for GB, except in certain events - Davis Cup, or Ryder Cup (although that is Europe and not GB).

And I think this is correct - I might cheer for Andy Murray or Lewis Hamilton because I'm a fan as an individual, not because they are Brits. And the same should be the case for athletics.

And on the 'team' part - well although tennis and golf are largely individual sports (albeit sometimes doubles) the Davis Cup, or Ryder Cup satisfy the criteria for a team sport event much better than the athletics events we have been talking about. Basically because players in the Davis Cup, or Ryder Cup never compete against their team mates, they compete against the opposition team and help their team-mates. And I don't think there is the equivalent of a 'medal' for winning your individual bit (e.g. one round of golf in the Ryder cup) as there is in athletics. The sole purpose of winning is to provide points for your team, rather than to win individual glory with a gold medal.

[Rhiannon]

Absolutely, which is why I wondered if Rutherford is behind the times. But then for all we are sending Team Camelot maybe other nations competing will still largely be state funded. I don't know. Is it daft to have a British Athletics brand without the national flag? I don't know that either, although stuff with the Union Flag sells well.

Also, going back in history the Olympics was seen as adequate as the international athletics championships. The IAAF largely seem to have transferred how the athletics works at the Olympics to the World Championships, rather than presenting something new, even though it's a comparatively recent competition.

[ProfessorDavey]

Absolutely, which is why I wondered if Rutherford is behind the times. But then for all we are sending Team Camelot maybe other nations competing will still largely be state funded. I don't know. Is it daft to have a British Athletics brand without the national flag? I don't know that either, although stuff with the Union Flag sells well.

Well I think we are back to where we started.

Whatever we might think about the validity or otherwise of athletics as a team sport or even a national team sport it is certainly less credible in that context than Football, Rugby or Cricket (to take three examples). Playing for your national team is a major thing in all of those sports, yet none brand themselves with the national flag in England (nor I think I am right in saying in any other GB or UK context).

England Rugby is the rose, in football and cricket three lions. Wales is the three feathers for Rugby and a different dragon for football, Scotland is a lion for football and thistle for rugby. Ireland use the shamrock for rugby etc etc.

Indeed there seems almost to be a distinct policy not to use the national flag (although the colour of strips allude to it) yet there is a much greater sense of national identity within those sporting teams than in any athletics 'team' event.

[Rhiannon]

Again I think that is down to history. Athletics has never had a comparable symbol in the UK apart from the various national flags. And in football, rugby and cricket the international sides are the individual nations, not GB. What is the GB symbol other than the national flag?

[ProfessorDavey]

Again I think that is down to history. Athletics has never had a comparable symbol in the UK apart from the various national flags. And in football, rugby and cricket the international sides are the individual nations, not GB. What is the GB symbol other than the national flag?

Here's a little site that shows GB athletics strips through the decades.

Interesting how tiny the flag is on some of them, and there are also ones without it at all.

Check out the Coe, Ovett, Cram picture - Cram is the only one who seems to have the flag on his vest - the other two don't at all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17474959

Perhaps in Rutherfords eyes Coe and Ovett are lesser athletes than Cram due to not wearing the flag. Incidentally in that 1980 Olympic final. Incidentally Coe won, Ovett came third and Cram 8th (clearly must have been weighed down by the flag!!!).

[Anchorman]

The GB athletes won't have the Union Flag on their kit for the World Championships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/33942584

Could this be due to the influence of Scottish nationalism? Can't think why else.

Does it matter?

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Great stuff!
The less we see of the butcher's apron, the better.

You mean the Scottish flag " doesn't " look like a butchers apron?


I'm sure I could find you one.

This one would probably suit 😜

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Novelty-sexy-Scottish-Flag-Bikini-Apron-/191662572500

Flags all look like butchers aprons, they are a popular style.

Or tea towels.

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The 'butchers apron' is a name first applied to the union flag by the United Irishmen...and also by many other colonised nations and territories of the 'british empire'.