Mary

[Owlswing]

One Tiberius Pantera, I think ( Ihave read the story but it was yonks ago).

Blimey Humph - Yonks - there's an expression I haven't heard for yonks!

[Brownie]

Floo, you once believed the Virgin Mary appeared to people in a field adjacent to your house, or if you didn't believe it you encouraged others to do so.   What with that and strange ghostly monks making their presence felt, ''touching wood'' seems quite mild by comparison.

Calm down dear, mithering about religion it isn't worth the bother (I should know, I've done enough of it!).

[Nearly Sane]

From the viewpoint of being brought up Catholic, I found the whole emphasis on Mary quite appealing. In part because of the context of being in the West of Scotland, there is a quite a lot of misogyny in the rhetoric of the more shouty varieties of Protestantism, so a bit of Maridolatry (or even Marydollatry if you are Rab C), is at least a recognition that women aren't all evil.

[Brownie]

I'd never thought of it like that before, Nearly Sane.  I am a Catholic, albeit somewhat lapsed, and always found the veneration of Mary a bit embarrassing so am glad to have your point of view.

[wigginhall]

Just echoing NS here, I knew quite a lot of New Age types who found Mary appealing, as representing the feminine, or even the goddess, and of course, she seemed to relieve the patriarchal attitudes of much Christianity.

Interesting book: Marina Warner, 'Alone of all her Sex: the Myth and the Cult of the Virgin Mary', as Warner is a very good writer. 

[Nearly Sane]

I think it's wrong to think of religions as monoliths, and my view of Christianity is deeply affected by the circumstances of what I saw growing up. I have posted elsewhere on here about the theoretical move between being a Catholic atheist and a Protestant one when I went into St Peter's in Rome. Both Protestant and Catholic churches were in my experience hugely misogynistic in the WoS, but that's because they reflect their local society and vice versa. The things I found embarrassing about Catholicism when I was being brought up Catholic, now seem like more inclusive than the cold austerity and almost OCD clarity of the Protestant churches I saw. The Little Child of Prague is laughable but more endearing than the removal of Mary from the Pieta.

[Nearly Sane]

Haven't read the Warner book, wigginhall. Thank you for the recommendation, will add to the huge virtual pile.

[wigginhall]

Yes, all the statues of Mary and other images are often child-like and naive.  For example, in the London Oratory there is a statue of her with a sort of organza skirt on, naff or what.    But it's quite appealing, I think.  It's a bit like roadside shrines, which are naff, but it's the naffness which I like.   More interesting than theology in a way.

Also, I saw some of the Black Madonnas in France, some of them look ancient and full of power, and sort of pre-Christian.   

[Nearly Sane]

It is strange that what I once considered naff is what  I now like. It relates back to the stuff on the music thread I am posting about guilty pleasures. I like the  mess of stuff I am not supposed to like, I like the smell of oddity rather than the chill of conformity. The whole Mary stuff feels smuggled in, a way of recognizing that women are important too and despite the whole papal approval almost subversive.


I return to the Pieta, Michelangelo's, a mother with her boy, dead, killed by others, a victim but loved, so powerfully loved, not as a god but just a son.

[floo]

Floo, you once believed the Virgin Mary appeared to people in a field adjacent to your house, or if you didn't believe it you encouraged others to do so.   What with that and strange ghostly monks making their presence felt, ''touching wood'' seems quite mild by comparison.

Calm down dear, mithering about religion it isn't worth the bother (I should know, I've done enough of it!).

Oh for crying out loud! How many times do I have to state that whilst I saw something for a second or two which resembled the picture book image of that woman, I thought my mind was seeing what it wanted to see!

[Brownie]

Fair enough floo, no offence meant.  I thought people came to visit your field but obviously I was mistaken.

[wigginhall]

It is strange that what I once considered naff is what  I now like. It relates back to the stuff on the music thread I am posting about guilty pleasures. I like the  mess of stuff I am not supposed to like, I like the smell of oddity rather than the chill of conformity. The whole Mary stuff feels smuggled in, a way of recognizing that women are important too and despite the whole papal approval almost subversive.


I return to the Pieta, Michelangelo's, a mother with her boy, dead, killed by others, a victim but loved, so powerfully loved, not as a god but just a son.

I'm the same with naffness.  I think Protestantism is very harsh and cold, whereas Catholicism is populist and naff, and has some great images. 

I sometimes look at the Cartoon of Mary and Anne (National Gallery, I think), quite an amazing image of female fecundity, as one woman seems to be in the lap of the other.   Also of course, phenomenal draughtsmanship.

All completely non-realist, of course, and in the best possible taste!

[jeremyp]

One Tiberius Pantera, I think ( Ihave read the story but it was yonks ago).

Not Nautius Maximus then?

[Nearly Sane]

Not Nautius Maximus then?

I have a fwend in Wome

[jeremyp]

I have a fwend in Wome

called Biggus Diccus.

[Owlswing]

called Biggus Diccus.

No, Junius Woss

[Khatru]

Well, she was there when the baby Jesus performed his first miracle.

[Dicky Underpants]

From the viewpoint of being brought up Catholic, I found the whole emphasis on Mary quite appealing. In part because of the context of being in the West of Scotland, there is a quite a lot of misogyny in the rhetoric of the more shouty varieties of Protestantism, so a bit of Maridolatry (or even Marydollatry if you are Rab C), is at least a recognition that women aren't all evil.

This is true, NS. The psychological importance of Mary for believers is important (as Jung realised). However, in the Catholic version she does represent an unattainable perfection as a representative of womanhood, so it may be that as much is lost as is gained in this respect.

Biblically, of course, as has been pointed out, the gospels are completely contradictory as regards her nature. She, who was apparently visited by the angel Gabriel announcing the divine pregnancy to her, had already seemingly forgotten about Jesus' true significance by the time he was presented in the Temple, and Jesus rebuffed both her and Joseph. Elsewhere Jesus is recorded as being rather less than complimentary to her, dismissively referring to her as "Woman". She in turn, along with some of his other relatives, appears to have considered him deranged at one point.
All the above reaffirms the idea that the less complimentary impressions reflect something of historical truth, whilst the stories of the Annunciation and the Birth narratives were simply add-ons, developed as Christ came to be regarded as divine in the minds of the early believers.

[jeremyp]

No, Junius Woss

What?

You're supposed to  go to: he has a wife you know...