Author Topic: Little girl chooses heaven......  (Read 20612 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2015, 02:06:58 PM »
My mobile's about to go flat but will try later. It was in one of the CNN articles and I got there via Huff Post.

Rhiannon

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #101 on: November 04, 2015, 02:42:26 PM »
Here.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/



He believes that when Julianna gets another infection, the hospital will likely not be able to save her. "For her, there is no light at the end of the tunnel," he says, his voice trailing off. "She doesn't have a long time to live."


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #102 on: November 04, 2015, 02:56:07 PM »
Here.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/



He believes that when Julianna gets another infection, the hospital will likely not be able to save her. "For her, there is no light at the end of the tunnel," he says, his voice trailing off. "She doesn't have a long time to live."

Thanks.

Which does accord with:

'CMT is not life-threatening, and most people with the condition have the same life expectancy as a person who does not have CMT.'
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Charcot-marie-tooth-disease/Pages/Introduction.aspx

'CMT is not a fatal disease and the disorder does not affect normal life expectancy.'
http://peripheralneuropathycenter.uchicago.edu/learnaboutpn/typesofpn/hereditary/charcotmarietooth.shtml

'CMT is not considered a fatal disease and people with most forms of CMT have a normal life expectancy.'
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/charcot_marie_tooth/detail_charcot_marie_tooth.htm

Again, something not adding up.

ippy

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2015, 03:18:32 PM »
Here.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/



He believes that when Julianna gets another infection, the hospital will likely not be able to save her. "For her, there is no light at the end of the tunnel," he says, his voice trailing off. "She doesn't have a long time to live."


Very sad Rhi, I have every sympathy for this little girl, I just find that nauseous spoon fed trite nonsense from the parents sounds so awful, they might just as well tell her something exactly similar, substituting Legoland in the pace of heaven.

I don't know what would be the best thing to say, it's a difficult call, but I'm certain saying those things to her about heaven is really sickening.

ippy.
   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2015, 04:01:37 PM »
Here.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/



He believes that when Julianna gets another infection, the hospital will likely not be able to save her. "For her, there is no light at the end of the tunnel," he says, his voice trailing off. "She doesn't have a long time to live."


Very sad Rhi, I have every sympathy for this little girl, I just find that nauseous spoon fed trite nonsense from the parents sounds so awful, they might just as well tell her something exactly similar, substituting Legoland in the pace of heaven.

I don't know what would be the best thing to say, it's a difficult call, but I'm certain saying those things to her about heaven is really sickening.

ippy.
   
I'm going to re-post this piece about the story, which seems extremely apt.

http://www.bioethics.net/2015/10/can-a-5-year-old-refuse-treatment-the-case-of-julianna-snow/

particularly:

'The Snows explained death as going to heaven—a place to play and be with deceased relatives. This is in line with most 5-year-olds’ understandings of death. But this is not understanding for informed consent. They have essentially told their child, the choice is between being in the hospital or playing with grandma. Of course she chose heaven, who wouldn’t? The child lacks competency to make this choice, capacity to make this choice, and a sufficient cognitive development to understand.

The parents are painting a coercive picture. What would Julianna say, if death was explained as “ceasing to exist. As sleeping, not dreaming, and never ever waking up. Never ever playing again. Never ever seeing anything or anyone ever again” or as “cold, dark, and lonely with worms gnawing through your body.” A hospital could be described as a place to make you better. These descriptions are equally coercive and because children are impressionable, likely to lead to a different preference by the child.'

Now of course the parents aren't going to, and shouldn't, terrify the poor girl with alternative pictures of what death might be like, but that doesn't change the point that by completely sugar coating the notion of what will happen after death that the child will, of course choose this over something she knows (hospital and invasive therapeutic intervention) which she remembers to be very unpleasant.

And there is also a problem in the way the parent's describe her and later them getting to heaven. Now leaving aside whether any of this is true, they tell her that:

'And it probably means that you will go to heaven by yourself, and Mommy will join you later.'

Note firstly 'probably' - not definitely. But also she says that mommy will join you later. What does that mean to the child. I suspect the child will think that mommy will join her in a few hours or maybe tomorrow. I doubt if the mother said, this morning you are going to grandma's and mommy will join you later, that that would mean maybe in 30 years. No the expectation will surely be in the mind of the child that it will be very soon.

So the parents do seem to have done everything to make heaven attractive in comparison with hospital, so not very surprising that the child choses it. But the big point here (which the article alludes to) is that the parents seem to be absolving themselves of their responsibility to make that choice as the parent of a 4 year old (and a terrible choice it is). Either they are genuinely letting the child chose, which is completely wrong as she doesn't have the capacity to make a choice of that magnitude. Or they are shying away from taking responsibility for their own choice by focusing on what she wants. Either way this isn't great. Again from the article:

'In no way should a five year old be making a choice as to whether to live or die. This is a case where paternalism needs to override the child’s autonomy. If the parents want to decide to pursue no further treatment, they have the right to make that choice. But it needs to be their choice. They can’t avoid guilt by putting moral responsibility on a 5-year-old. At the same time, if they can’t make a choice or don’t want to, this may be a place for the state to step in, as it did for Cassandra C.'

Rhiannon

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2015, 04:35:36 PM »
I believe in some cases of repeated pneumonia there can be significant scarring of the lungs. Could this be the case here?

Note, I'm not trying to defend anyone, just trying to make sense of why her doctors think she is terminally ill.

Owlswing

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2015, 04:40:45 PM »
I believe in some cases of repeated pneumonia there can be significant scarring of the lungs. Could this be the case here?

Note, I'm not trying to defend anyone, just trying to make sense of why her doctors think she is terminally ill.

I got my asthma from having suffered pneumonia three times in four years from age 18 months.

I'm told that my lungs have scaring from those infections - I am now 69, I am still alive - if i can survive three bouts of pneumonia at 18 months I am sure a four year old has a better chance than that they are apparently giving her!

Andm to add insult to those injuries I was, for 40 years, despite being asthmatic, a heavy smoker. I gave up 20 years ago.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 04:42:16 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

ippy

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2015, 05:33:53 PM »
Here.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/



He believes that when Julianna gets another infection, the hospital will likely not be able to save her. "For her, there is no light at the end of the tunnel," he says, his voice trailing off. "She doesn't have a long time to live."


Very sad Rhi, I have every sympathy for this little girl, I just find that nauseous spoon fed trite nonsense from the parents sounds so awful, they might just as well tell her something exactly similar, substituting Legoland in the pace of heaven.

I don't know what would be the best thing to say, it's a difficult call, but I'm certain saying those things to her about heaven is really sickening.

ippy.
   
I'm going to re-post this piece about the story, which seems extremely apt.

http://www.bioethics.net/2015/10/can-a-5-year-old-refuse-treatment-the-case-of-julianna-snow/

particularly:

'The Snows explained death as going to heaven—a place to play and be with deceased relatives. This is in line with most 5-year-olds’ understandings of death. But this is not understanding for informed consent. They have essentially told their child, the choice is between being in the hospital or playing with grandma. Of course she chose heaven, who wouldn’t? The child lacks competency to make this choice, capacity to make this choice, and a sufficient cognitive development to understand.

The parents are painting a coercive picture. What would Julianna say, if death was explained as “ceasing to exist. As sleeping, not dreaming, and never ever waking up. Never ever playing again. Never ever seeing anything or anyone ever again” or as “cold, dark, and lonely with worms gnawing through your body.” A hospital could be described as a place to make you better. These descriptions are equally coercive and because children are impressionable, likely to lead to a different preference by the child.'

Now of course the parents aren't going to, and shouldn't, terrify the poor girl with alternative pictures of what death might be like, but that doesn't change the point that by completely sugar coating the notion of what will happen after death that the child will, of course choose this over something she knows (hospital and invasive therapeutic intervention) which she remembers to be very unpleasant.

And there is also a problem in the way the parent's describe her and later them getting to heaven. Now leaving aside whether any of this is true, they tell her that:

'And it probably means that you will go to heaven by yourself, and Mommy will join you later.'

Note firstly 'probably' - not definitely. But also she says that mommy will join you later. What does that mean to the child. I suspect the child will think that mommy will join her in a few hours or maybe tomorrow. I doubt if the mother said, this morning you are going to grandma's and mommy will join you later, that that would mean maybe in 30 years. No the expectation will surely be in the mind of the child that it will be very soon.

So the parents do seem to have done everything to make heaven attractive in comparison with hospital, so not very surprising that the child choses it. But the big point here (which the article alludes to) is that the parents seem to be absolving themselves of their responsibility to make that choice as the parent of a 4 year old (and a terrible choice it is). Either they are genuinely letting the child chose, which is completely wrong as she doesn't have the capacity to make a choice of that magnitude. Or they are shying away from taking responsibility for their own choice by focusing on what she wants. Either way this isn't great. Again from the article:

'In no way should a five year old be making a choice as to whether to live or die. This is a case where paternalism needs to override the child’s autonomy. If the parents want to decide to pursue no further treatment, they have the right to make that choice. But it needs to be their choice. They can’t avoid guilt by putting moral responsibility on a 5-year-old. At the same time, if they can’t make a choice or don’t want to, this may be a place for the state to step in, as it did for Cassandra C.'


Had a good read of your link and find I have to agree with the Addendum, although my personal reasons for having such a dislike of religions, makes way religion was thrown in by the parents very distasteful.

I think the addendum is logical and rational, no matter how much I dislike the effects of religions and the nonsense they spread.

(By the way Proff, are you an American)?

ippy 


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2015, 05:36:47 PM »

(By the way Proff, are you an American)?

ippy
No.

Out of interest why would you think I was? Is there something of a midwest drawl in my writing style ;D

ippy

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2015, 05:41:57 PM »

(By the way Proff, are you an American)?

ippy
No.

Out of interest why would you think I was? Is there something of a midwest drawl in my writing style ;D

No, English English, Mummy.

ippy

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #110 on: November 04, 2015, 06:01:23 PM »

(By the way Proff, are you an American)?

ippy
No.

Out of interest why would you think I was? Is there something of a midwest drawl in my writing style ;D

No, English English, Mummy.

ippy
Fair enough - was only using the term used in the article.

Sriram

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #111 on: February 18, 2016, 02:36:45 PM »


Hi Everyone,

Here is Part 2 of the little girl's story.  She is deteriorating rapidly. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-2/index.html

**************

Michelle: Julianna, if you get sick again, do you want to go to the hospital again or stay home?

Julianna: Not the hospital

Michelle: Even if that means that you will go to heaven if you stay home?

Julianna: Yes... I hate NT (naso-tracheal suction, where a tube was placed down her nose into her lungs without sedation). I hate the hospital.

Michelle: Right. So if you get sick again, you want to stay home. But you know that probably means you will go to heaven, right?

Julianna: (nods)

Michelle: And it probably means that you will go to heaven by yourself, and Mommy will join you later.

Julianna: But I won't be alone.

Michelle: That's right. You will not be alone.

****************

Extremely sad!

Sriram

L.A.

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Re: Little girl chooses heaven......
« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2016, 03:30:27 PM »
The key word in all this is incurable - it doesn't matter what treatment she receives, the little girl is dying - and miraculously, the girl and her family have come to terms with the situation.

Why would any sane compassionate person wish to criticise or interfere?
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