Author Topic: Male Genital Mutilation  (Read 78513 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #750 on: July 08, 2017, 10:49:48 AM »
Yes interesting - are you suggesting that all the people who do not support banning the smacking of children were abused themselves as children? Do you have any evidence for that?
I thought it was very well understood that people who were abused as children are more likely to go on to abuse as adults, often using the same type of abuse foster on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/17/breaking-the-cycle-of-abuse

Note:
'The debate focused on the fact that children who are abused are much more likely to become adults who abuse (between 30% and 40% of people who are abused as children go on to become abusers themselves)'

Note I didn't say and nor does the evidence suggest that all abused children go on to become abusers, but they are more likely than the general population. SO it isn't the case that someone harmed by abuse would be the least likely to perpetuate that abuse as they understand the harm - quite the reverse.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #751 on: July 08, 2017, 12:02:16 PM »
Was it easier for Goodluck Caubergs.

Was it easier for Angelo Ofori-Mintah

Was it easier for Amitai Moshe

Was it easier for Celian Monthe Noumbiwe

Was it easier for Oliver Asante­ Yeboah

To name just five
I had a look at these names. Only one of these circumcisions was carried out at a medical establishment, and the finding was that the GP surgery did not give the right after-care information to the parents.

Amitai Moshe died of SIDS - it was ruled that his death wasn't linked to the circumcision.

For a start it should be possible to require religious groups to use a registered, regulated medical professional trained in circumcision, rather than a Rabbi, and for the surgery to not be done at home and for proper after-care information to be given, though I appreciate that if parents are too uneducated to know how to deal with a medical emergency and do not take the child to A&E straight away, this won't be much help and the safest option is to not have unnecessary surgery, including ear piercing - my daughter's cartilage piercing became infected as she decided to have it done in a shop in Sri Lanka with a friend, rather than waiting and doing it in the UK, where the shop might have been more careful about preventing infections, and I took her to the hotel doctor in Dubai (we were now in Dubai) in case she needed antibiotics and also I was aware of the danger of sepsis though the infection only seemed localised and she did not have a temperature.

That does not mean that individuals won't flout such a law - as they do with the law against FGM - but it helps focus the parents' attention on the risks of circumcision. It is up to the State to publicise and enforce the law by prosecuting parents and people who carryout circumcisions who are not qualified and regulated. Given the more severe and widespread health problems associated with FGM and the more urgent need to protect women who asked for protection, it was important to send a clear message by banning FGM. If there were  similar severe and widespread problems associated with circumcision and boys/ men asking for protection it would be consistent to take a similar approach to circumcision.

If there are not severe and widespread problems with circumcision, but it is banned there is the possibility that some people will take their children abroad for the circumcision, so politicians might have also taken this into consideration and decided that education about risks seems a better option for child safety and reducing the practice of infant circumcision rather than a law banning it.

I don't see this as moral cowardice - I think the accusations of moral cowardice are just lazy thinking. It seems more about being practical and realistic about what can actually be achieved. Dismissing the importance and benefits people get from traditions and rituals in their lives is likely to make them more entrenched in their position and put children at risk. Educating them about the risks and changing the law gradually is likely to have more success in influencing people to abandon infant circumcision in favour of circumcision at an older age with the informed consent of the individual. For example, the law passed in Germany stated that the circumcision should not pose a danger to the child's well-being, which allows State intervention if there is evidence that it is posing a danger.

The "danger" wording in the law paves the way to addressing the key issue of the lack of consent by the child to a procedure that carries some risk versus the benefit to the child of being part of their parent's traditions. I think  if children perceive that they do not derive a benefit greater than the risk they will not continue the tradition for their own children and it will change or die out. I think it is possible the politicians considered it was overly paternalistic to make that decision for them in relation to circumcision, based on the perceived risks and benefits of circumcision.
 
 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #752 on: July 08, 2017, 12:20:24 PM »
I thought it was very well understood that people who were abused as children are more likely to go on to abuse as adults, often using the same type of abuse foster on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/17/breaking-the-cycle-of-abuse

Note:
'The debate focused on the fact that children who are abused are much more likely to become adults who abuse (between 30% and 40% of people who are abused as children go on to become abusers themselves)'

Note I didn't say and nor does the evidence suggest that all abused children go on to become abusers, but they are more likely than the general population. SO it isn't the case that someone harmed by abuse would be the least likely to perpetuate that abuse as they understand the harm - quite the reverse.
Yes I understand there are claims that people who do not support a smacking ban who were smacked themselves as children could be perpetuating abuse - it's not the only explanation though. It is quite possible that people do not see smacking as abuse but as reasonable chastisement.

My other point was that it is also possible that people who were NOT smacked as children who do not support a ban on smacking just think smacking is also reasonable chastisement that parents should have the choice to use rather than the State micro-managing parenting. These parents cannot be perpetuating a cycle of abuse if they themselves were not abused as children - so another explanation is that they formed a different view from the information available.

I think the same thing applies to circumcision - you can't assume that people who do not support a ban on circumcisions are perpetuating a cycle of abuse. They might have just formed a different opinion based on the information available.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #753 on: July 08, 2017, 01:03:34 PM »
For a start it should be possible to require religious groups to use a registered, regulated medical professional trained in circumcision ...
But currently virtually all circumcisions in the UK associated with religious practice are not being performed for medical reasons. And I suspect pretty few are performed by medical professionals for the very reason that they are medically-indicated.

So why should a medical professional be spending their time performing surgery that is not indicated on medical grounds. Indeed surely that would be unethical. You might as well argue that all boy piercings and tattoos should be performed by a medical professional.

Nope medical professional are in the business of delivering medical treatment - ritual circumcision is not medical treatment.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:34:29 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #754 on: July 10, 2017, 02:52:25 PM »
Currently it is possible to pay a doctor to perform a ritual circumcision e.g. Thornhill Circumcision Centre
https://circumcisioncentre.co.uk/

They seem to emphasise their focus on after-care.

Until Parliament / the courts decide one way or the other on the best interests/ consent issue for infant circumcisions.
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Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #755 on: July 10, 2017, 03:15:54 PM »
Surely this topic has been done to death?

Robbie

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #756 on: July 10, 2017, 04:38:03 PM »
Should we cut it off now floo?

(Can't be done to death more than the God searching thread  :D)
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Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #757 on: July 10, 2017, 05:14:24 PM »
SforG has some of the finest writing this forum has seen on it. Hence the reason it is stickied.

If you want this one mothballed ask the mods. Gabriella and ProfD may or may not agreee.

Robbie

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #758 on: July 10, 2017, 05:18:18 PM »
Not up to me, I don't care one way or t'other but floo seemed  abit exasperated with it in her last post.
The subject is bound to come up again & again so why not keep it.
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floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #759 on: July 10, 2017, 05:22:44 PM »
Unless the law is changed banning ritual circumcision of males, I just can't see what else there is to say on the topic.

jeremyp

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #760 on: July 10, 2017, 08:08:02 PM »
Unless the law is changed banning ritual circumcision of males, I just can't see what else there is to say on the topic.

The law won't be changed until enough people are persuaded that hacking pieces off a baby's penis is wrong. For that to happen, we need to keep making the argument.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #761 on: August 12, 2017, 10:12:31 AM »
Sorry to resurrect this, but:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40880360

Some people can't leave well alone.
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floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #762 on: August 12, 2017, 02:33:52 PM »
Sorry to resurrect this, but:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40880360

Some people can't leave well alone.

I have no idea if the surgery was necessary, adhesions don't sound good. However, he should have consulted the parents first.

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #763 on: August 12, 2017, 03:17:58 PM »
I have no idea if the surgery was necessary, adhesions don't sound good. However, he should have consulted the parents first.

I think he has acted unproffesionally and should face bein struck off!
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #764 on: August 12, 2017, 03:25:25 PM »
The lack of consent and explanation as to why surgery was desirable plus potential risks is troubling.

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #765 on: August 12, 2017, 03:30:41 PM »
The lack of consent and explanation as to why surgery was desirable plus potential risks is troubling.

At the very least he should face a hefty fine after being sued.
I see gullible people, everywhere!