The most evil character in fiction

[Shaker]

I'm also not sure how you stand on Jesus' remarks about Hades or Gehenna either, which have often been explained away as metaphors, but others are more literal in their approach.
The New Testament could be seen (if so interpreted) as worse than the Old, since with the latter - apart from a bit of the Book of Daniel - rewards and punishments come in this life.

Multiple passages in the OT heavily hint and at times skirt around denying an afterlife altogether; it doesn't seem to have been part of historical Judaism. Whatever befell people happened here and now in this life. The idea of sheol seems to have been a latter addition; a dim, shadowy underworld after death - not at all dissimilar to that posited by the ancient Greeks- to which all went at death irrespective of their acts in life. There's no suggestion of reward or punishment; this is strictly a one size fits all afterlife. Martyr and murderer get the same gloomy smoke-like existence a bit like the Dead Marshes in Lord of the Rings.

Orthodox Judaism makes much of olam haBa (the world to come) but Rabbi Julia Neuberger* concedes that a great many Jews are "a bit shaky" on a posthumous state. Life here and now and what happens in it or with it is the only stage of which we can be certain.

I forget who it was who said that purely earthly tyrants and dictators - the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Pol Pots and so forth - seek only to kill their enemies and be done with it. As terrible as that is, that's that. Death will do. The God of the NT however insists on pursuing those deemed wicked into the next world and punishing, in fact torturing them there.

* On Being Jewish.

[Rhiannon]

Ah well - I just thought I'd try to urge people to consider the Bible as a collection of books - indeed a library - with different authors having very different thoughts about 'God', rather than considering it just one book about one central character - which is a very fundamentalist outlook, even when atheists start banging on about it.

I agree, it's quite funny trying to see how people try and make the Song of Solomon work with the 'one book' theory.

[jeremyp]

Produce another fictional character which is as bad.

I already did: Grand Moff Tarkin.

[jeremyp]

But what about that bloke on Tbe Force Awakens who destroyed several planets? And were they both atheists?

And is instant obliteration worse than eternal torture with wailing and gnashing of teeth for unbelievers?

I didn't claim Grand Moff Tarkin is the most evil person in all fiction, only that he was more evil than Bible God.

[Nearly Sane]

I didn't claim Grand Moff Tarkin is the most evil person in all fiction, only that he was more evil than Bible God.

That still leaves Rhiannon's point about obliteration versus eternal torture, surely?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I have heard the Christian God referred to as The most evil character in fiction.
I disagree. The most evil character in fiction would be an atheist murderer surely.
What do others think?

I think you're trying the same casual slur by association you try with phrases like "secular Stalinism".

What's an "atheist murderer" exactly, or is the "atheist" bit no more relevant here than it would be if you were to describe, say, an atheist juggler?

[Shaker]

Vlad,

I think you're trying the same casual slur by association you try with phrases like "secular Stalinism".

What's an "atheist murderer" exactly, or is the "atheist" bit no more relevant here than it would be if you were to describe, say, an atheist juggler?

Atheist jugglers - there's no balls involved, you know

[jeremyp]

That still leaves Rhiannon's point about obliteration versus eternal torture, surely?

Hmm, yes, but it is not at all certain that Bible god has eternal torture, at least not Old Testament Bible god.

[jeremyp]

Hmm, yes, but it is not at all certain that Bible god has eternal torture, at least not Old Testament Bible god.

I suppose, if Bible god, doesn't do eternal torture, you could reinvent him so he does, because it is fiction. On the other hand, I could invent a version of Grand Moff Tarkin that blows up a planet and also subjects everybody to eternal torture. Slippery stuff, this fiction.

[Dicky Underpants]

Hmm, yes, but it is not at all certain that Bible god has eternal torture, at least not Old Testament Bible god.

Shaker and I have made this point - that eternal torture (or eternal anything, except Old Nobodaddy) is not indicated in the OT.
It could be argued that this doctrine is present in the New. I don't know that Rhiannon was referring specifically to any particular testament, and I'm pretty sure she's well informed enough to be aware of the way divine rewards and punishments are meted out in each respective testament - unlike a lot of believing Christians

[Dicky Underpants]

Multiple passages in the OT heavily hint and at times skirt around denying an afterlife altogether; it doesn't seem to have been part of historical Judaism. Whatever befell people happened here and now in this life. The idea of sheol seems to have been a latter addition; a dim, shadowy underworld after death - not at all dissimilar to that posited by the ancient Greeks- to which all went at death irrespective of their acts in life. There's no suggestion of reward or punishment; this is strictly a one size fits all afterlife. Martyr and murderer get the same gloomy smoke-like existence a bit like the Dead Marshes in Lord of the Rings.

Orthodox Judaism makes much of olam haBa (the world to come) but Rabbi Julia Neuberger* concedes that a great many Jews are "a bit shaky" on a posthumous state. Life here and now and what happens in it or with it is the only stage of which we can be certain.

I forget who it was who said that purely earthly tyrants and dictators - the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Pol Pots and so forth - seek only to kill their enemies and be done with it. As terrible as that is, that's that. Death will do. The God of the NT however insists on pursuing those deemed wicked into the next world and punishing, in fact torturing them there.

* On Being Jewish.

Nice scholarly post, with which I agree entirely (especially liked the last paragraph). I think it is worthwhile now and again to remind believers that those of us who do not share the faith are probably just as well informed in biblical matters (probably more so) than many who believe. JP Rh NS and yourself are all sterling chaps and chappess.

[Dicky Underpants]

Milton's Satan, in 'Paradise Lost'.

I supposed it's a truism that the English Romantics (particularly the poets) saw Milton's Satan as the archetypal Romantic hero, rebelling against an unjust creator. A bit like Prometheus - whose influence on creative artists was even wider (e.g. Beethoven).
Blake was perhaps the first to obliquely suggest that Milton was not exactly painting God in a very appealing light:
"The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels and God, and at liberty when of Devils and Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it."

Shelley, naturally enough, wrote of his sympathy for Satan as a true hero - and of course he wrote his own version of the Prometheus myth.

Why do you think Milton's Satan is such a bad lot?

[Shaker]

I supposed it's a truism that the English Romantics (particularly the poets) saw Milton's Satan as the archetypal Romantic hero, rebelling against an unjust creator. A bit like Prometheus - whose influence on creative artists was even wider (e.g. Beethoven).
Blake was perhaps the first to obliquely suggest that Milton was not exactly painting God in a very appealing light:
"The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels and God, and at liberty when of Devils and Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it."

Shelley, naturally enough, wrote of his sympathy for Satan as a true hero - and of course he wrote his own version of the Prometheus myth.

I don't know that it's widespread enough to be classed as any kind of NRM (New Religious Movement) though there are a very few more or less official organisations espousing it - perhaps it's more of a philosophical stance - but there's certainly an ethos or attitude known as Luciferianism. This has precisely zero to do with Satanism: this sees Lucifer in much the terms you've described above - as a rebel, certainly, but a rebel on the side of humanity; a non serviam kind of figure, a bringer not merely of light but of enlightenment; an independent thinker, a go-it-alone type. Much to commend it, in my opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism

Also worth a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_and_Prometheus

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Atheist jugglers - there's no balls involved, you know

That's the problem with atheist anything.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just pulling your leg.