Author Topic: Another shooter Stateside  (Read 3882 times)

Shaker

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 06:19:00 PM »
Yes and that's why I said I thought it may well be a part of their, the Americans, problem, as far as I know just for starters it's a five years plus prison sentence if a U K citizen is found by the authorities to have in their possession a hand gun without the appropriate licence and as Shaker says differing cultural reasons between the U K & US too.

ippy
My understanding of the 2nd Amendment is that the general populace are permitted to bear arms in the absence of a well-regulated militia. "A well-regulated militia" is not, AFAIK, a phrase ever defined so I have to assume that it means a standing army ... which the US has. So that would seem to do away with the need for private ownership of firearms, surely?
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jeremyp

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 06:31:40 PM »
My understanding of the 2nd Amendment is that the general populace are permitted to bear arms in the absence of a well-regulated militia. "A well-regulated militia" is not, AFAIK, a phrase ever defined so I have to assume that it means a standing army
The word "militia" has a specific meaning in the context of the time. A militia was an organised group of civilians called to arms to fight. The one thing it definitely doesn't mean is "standing army" . At the time the second amendment was drafted, there was no standing army of the USA and there was signifiant reluctance from the individual states to allow a federal army.


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... which the US has. So that would seem to do away with the need for private ownership of firearms, surely?
In my opinion, the second amendment is obsoleted by the existence of the US Army. A militia is only needed for the defence of the state in the absence of a standing army. However, the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

I think that is one of the most obviously bad decisions they ever made. Why mention the well regulated militia in the amendment if it wasn't relevant? There are people who almost worship the US Constitution, but I have to think it was one of the most appallingly badly drafted legal documents ever.
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Walter

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 06:33:08 PM »
Run along Wally, the grownups are talking.
oh !I love you all really.
I shall be away for a while from tomorrow morning, god has decided he needs to make some repairs to one of his prised creations but forgot to tell me if he wants me with him or if I can continue to annoy folk on here . Anyway, its been a  blast, farewell each...

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Shaker

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 06:42:52 PM »
In my opinion, the second amendment is obsoleted by the existence of the US Army. A militia is only needed for the defence of the state in the absence of a standing army.
This is exactly where my thoughts were going.

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However, the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

I think that is one of the most obviously bad decisions they ever made.
I'm in complete agreement. What an almighty fuckup.

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There are people who almost worship the US Constitution, but I have to think it was one of the most appallingly badly drafted legal documents ever.
True; although to cut the Founding Fathers a modicum of slack, they were faced with the invidious task of trying to create a new and independent nation from scratch and trying to put its principles and citizens' rights down in black and white. Not something I'd find easy.

The impression I get from my experience of Second Amendment-idolators is that a radical mistrust of government is a broad and deep stripe in the American psyche - that the guns are needed to be used against elected government if the balloon goes up and they start getting uppity.

It may be that this is a legacy of America's history - the nation started out after all as a union of British colonies ruled by an absent king a long long way away, a rule which was perceived to be oppressive and punitive. To hear some people speak you'd think that they've never actually outgrown this and that armed revolution against the government is only one bad bill away.

This possibly also explains the phobic horror in so many quarters of universal healthcare.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:48:09 PM by Shaker »
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jeremyp

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 06:54:43 PM »

True; although to cut the Founding Fathers a modicum of slack, they were faced with the invidious task of trying to create a new and independent nation from scratch and trying to put its principles and rights down in black and white. Not something I'd find easy.
No and probably they thought they were being perfectly clear. But once you lose the context of the times, the meaning can be lost.

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The impression I get from my experience of Second Amendment-idolators is that a radical mistrust of government is a broad and deep stripe in the American psyche - that the guns are needed to be used against elected government if the balloon goes up and they start getting uppity.
I agree. I like they way you use the adjective "elected". There seems to be some disconnect between voting and the consequences of you vote. Probably, in the USA your vote means less than in any other Western democracy in the sense that both the Democratic and Republican parties are pretty corporate.
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Shaker

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 07:07:15 PM »
No and probably they thought they were being perfectly clear. But once you lose the context of the times, the meaning can be lost.
I agree. I like they way you use the adjective "elected". There seems to be some disconnect between voting and the consequences of you vote. Probably, in the USA your vote means less than in any other Western democracy in the sense that both the Democratic and Republican parties are pretty corporate.
Perhaps the difference can be explained by Hanlon's Razor ("Never ascribe to deliberate malice that which can be explained by bungling incompetence"). For as much as Britons grumble and grouse about the government - all governments - I don't think it's a widespread belief that they're actively, sinisterly malicious. Useless, yes; clueless, yes; deliberately downright evil, not really. In America it seems to be widely held to be the opposite; there's very much a sense that government (frequently preceded by the word big) is the enemy of the individual and his (needless to say, God-given) rights. I'm not convinced that Britons typically think that way.  In rare and isolated examples, possibly - the mooted introduction of compulsory ID cards, for example - but not as a rule.

And then there's manifest destiny - America was/is a nation stolen from the indigenous people who had inhabited the land for millennia. Settlers had to grind their way west and doubtless felt in need of protection from those who were less than delighted about having their land and culture taken from them.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 07:08:17 PM »
Apparently he was a millionaire and some of the weapons he had are only available at a high price.

Shaker

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2017, 07:12:35 PM »
Apparently he was a millionaire and some of the weapons he had are only available at a high price.

This sort of thing (which routinely happens in tragic cases such as this) pisses me off no end:

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A former neighbour, Diane McKay, 79, told the Washington Post the couple always kept the blinds closed at home.

"He was weird," she said. "Kept to himself. It was like living next to nothing.

"You can at least be grumpy, something. He was just nothing, quiet."

Now even being a quiet neighbour is a point of criticism  ::)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SteveH

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2017, 02:12:26 PM »
Well the most important thing is that Laura Robson is safe.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/41468025

/sarcasm
I'm not sure that sarcasm is in the best possible taste after an appalling tragedy like this.
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jeremyp

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Re: Another shooter Stateside
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2017, 03:34:23 PM »
I'm not sure that sarcasm is in the best possible taste after an appalling tragedy like this.
I'm back. by the way - I will try to behave from now on.

I'm not sure that a fluff celebrity piece was in the best possible taste after an appalling tragedy like this. Hence the sarcasm.
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