Why use the word ''natural''?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why talk of naturalism when materialism is closer to the mark?
I am suspicious of it and the way the word natural has been promoted by certain persons of and late of this parish.

[Nearly Sane]

Why talk of naturalism when materialism is closer to the mark?
I am suspicious of it and the way the word natural has been promoted by certain persons of and late of this parish.

Who has done this?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who has done this?

Anybody who has promoted it's use over the word materialism.

I believe those who saw themselves guardians of the flame of antitheism and those in awe of them did it because materialism was recieving a pounding and because it suggested circular argument.

Naturalism is more explicitly antigod.

but really we are talking about the material and the physical. IMHO

[Nearly Sane]

Anybody who has promoted it's use over the word materialism.

I believe those who saw themselves guardians of the flame of antitheism and those in awe of them did it because materialism was recieving a pounding and because it suggested circular argument.

Naturalism is more explicitly antigod.

but really we are talking about the material and the physical. IMHO

And who has been talking in a context where they have been touting naturalism vs materialism as you mentioned in the OP? Just to note that isn't in line with your title which talks about ''natural'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And who has been talking in a context where they have been touting naturalism vs materialism as you mentioned in the OP? Just to note that isn't in line with your title which talks about ''natural'.

I am arguing for the word natural to be dropped in favour of one more appropriate.
Are you going to answer the question posed by the title or yet again make this personal?

[Nearly Sane]

I am arguing for the word natural to be dropped in favour of one more appropriate.
Are you going to answer the question posed by the title or yet again make this personal?

Who's making it personal? I only asked who had, as you claimed in the op, used naturalism as opposed to materialism. Since there don't seem to be any examples and since the OP and the title are in conflict between the use of natural as opposed to naturalism , there doesn't seem to be any coherent question to answer.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who's making it personal? I only asked who had, as you claimed in the op, used naturalism as opposed to materialism. Since there don't seem to be any examples and since the OP and the title are in conflict between the use of natural as opposed to naturalism , there doesn't seem to be any coherent question to answer.

My aim was to set the context without getting bogged down in personalities.
Why are you using the word natural for instance?

[Nearly Sane]

My aim was to set the context without getting bogged down in personalities.
Why are you using the word natural for instance?

But there isn't a context - I haven't seen anyone do what you stated in the OP, That's why I asked for an example.


I'm using the word natural here because that is what is your title. That's why I'm pointing out that it makes the question even less coherent because not only are you claiming some context for the question in the OP about naturalism as opposed to materialism, which you have since not provided despite being asked, but also the question in the title seems an entirely different question and has no context either

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Buit there isn't a context - I haven't seen anyone do what you stated in the OP, That's why I asked for an example.


I'm using the word natural here because that is what is your title. That's why I'm pointing out that it makes the question even less coherent because not only are you claiming some context for the question in the OP about naturalism as opposed to materialism, which you have since not provided despite being asked, but also the question in the title seems an entirely different question and has no context either

You've obviously become a bit tired and irritated at my brief sojourn onto the board so as I don't have to hang about I won't Ciao.

[Nearly Sane]

You've obviously become a bit tired and irritated at my brief sojourn onto the board so as I don't have to hang about I won't Ciao.

Not at all. I'm just asking you some questions.  Whenever you want to address them, I'll look forward to it.

[wigginhall]

I thought that 'materialism' was being used less today, partly because some phenomena such as spacetime are not obviously 'matter'.   But then 'physicalism' seems to be used also.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I thought that 'materialism' was being used less today, partly because some phenomena such as spacetime are not obviously 'matter'. 

Wiggs, are you suggesting.......a woo thing here?
Anyway, why use the word natural since there seems to be a vicious circle of naturalistic methodology apparently springing forth from philosophical naturalism which then seeks it's justification somehow from naturalistic methodology?

[jeremyp]

I thought that 'materialism' was being used less today, partly because some phenomena such as spacetime are not obviously 'matter'.   But then 'physicalism' seems to be used also.

Materialism isn't saying "everything is matter". Materialism is "what you see is what you get". Vlad dislikes the word naturalism because he thinks he is on safer ground arguing against materialism.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Materialism isn't saying "everything is matter". Materialism is "what you see is what you get". Vlad dislikes the word naturalism because he thinks he is on safer ground arguing against materialism.

Or you guys like the word naturalism because you think you are safer ground than arguing materialism. The evidence of this being the use of the word nature rather than material.

[Dicky Underpants]

I am arguing for the word natural to be dropped in favour of one more appropriate.
Are you going to answer the question posed by the title or yet again make this personal?

I have noted that they are often used interchangeably elsewhere (eg. philosophical naturalism/materialism)
I'd got the impression that here the tendency was for people to use philosophical materialism or methodological materialism (and to know the difference between them).

I would have thought that you would have known how 'loaded' people's comments were in respect of their 'anti-theism' or straightforward atheism from what they actually wrote in general, without your putting a prohibition on certain words to describe a philosophical position.

[Dicky Underpants]

I thought that 'materialism' was being used less today, partly because some phenomena such as spacetime are not obviously 'matter'.   But then 'physicalism' seems to be used also.

Indeed wiggi, it smacks a bit of clunky 19th century atomism. Most people have got some idea that the universe isn't like that. I like Jeremy's comment that materialism is just "What you see is what you get" - that at least is straightforward.