Author Topic: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'  (Read 4142 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64313
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 08:39:34 PM »
I'm not aware I was making a case, looks like you may have misread or misunderstood my previous posts?

Regards ippy
So when you replied to my post about it being a horrendous decision for a judge , saying the suggestions in the programme were relevant somehow, you were just posting white noise. Ah well.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 09:45:40 PM »
I was questioning your generalisation, not sure why watching the programme helps. If someone said it on the programme then you have merely repeated the generalisation
I think you are focusing on something that isn't really important in terms of the discussion. The person on the Big Questions who made the statement, who I am pretty sure was a doctor as well as on a medical ethics committee (but if someone else watched it and wants to correct me on that please go ahead) wasn't trying to make a generalisation about every doctor. The other audience members did not seem to take it as a generalisation about all doctors - they were focused on the point she seemed to be trying to make.

She was suggesting that doctors (presumably the ones she or her committee had got feedback from) were wanting society to have this discussion. The point was made by another doctor (or might have been the same person) that the babies require a lot of medical care and that just the basic care cost approximately £250,000 - £500,000 per year, and if babies got for example chest infections then the cost of treating them would be even more than that.

The Big Questions piece was about how to deal with this cost issue since many parents say you can't you put a price on a child's life but yet society has to, because of limited resources. The babies required round the clock care, and Talullah's dad said their carers had cancelled on them the previous 2 nights so it was just him and his wife providing round the clock care (as Talllulah had been allowed home, hooked up to the ventilator and with the medicines etc) and he also had to go to work to support his wife and 2 children. He did not say why the state-funded carers had cancelled - but there weren't replacement carers provided when they did cancel. The impression was that parents in this situation were not well-supported and were very much alone and so parents would need to be aware of what they were taking on, if they asked doctors to keep their children alive.

Quote
My take is that cost isn't what determines the decision in courts, nor can it can be for judges because that then makes the decision even worse. If you want to say to a judge it's either this baby being kept alive for x months or two city year olds for x/2 months then that's making a shite decision even more unpleasant.
Yes - the Big Questions approach was that the discussion is almost considered taboo, but apparently the medical ethicist and doctors on the programme felt it's the type of conversations that society needs to have. I think some people felt it isn't just an issue for the courts as it is not an interpretation of law but a matter of society values. NHS care is free at point of delivery so it isn't something doctors would bring up with parents.

I am not sure they expected a consensus, but they wanted it not to be taboo to talk about the cost of keeping the children alive, and figure out how to broach that with parents/ citizens in order to factor the cost into decisions to continue to treat. Presumably that's why Ippy felt it hampered the discussion to have Talullah's dad there as people would presumably find it more difficult to say that a baby, his baby, was an unjustified drain on limited resources. IMO Tallulah's dad handled the discussion well, and presumably if a manager at a hospital needs to tell a parent that the hospital does not have the resources to keep their child alive, people would have to get used to discussing it in front of the affected parents.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64313
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 09:52:36 PM »
Sorry that I appear to have focussed on a generalisation you made that you know you can"t evidence. I don't understand what point the rest of your post is making since I agreed with the idea that talking about this is good.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:06:42 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2018, 10:30:39 PM »
So when you replied to my post about it being a horrendous decision for a judge , saying the suggestions in the programme were relevant somehow, you were just posting white noise. Ah well.

This lot and I'm not even dissagreeing with you about anything?

Regards ippy

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 10:33:13 PM »
Sorry that I appear to have focussed on a generalisation you made that you know you can"t evidence. I don't understand what point the rest of your post is making since I agreed with the idea that talking about this is good.
I'm confused. In reply #15 you asked me if I was generalising about all doctors and I replied that I didn't think it was intended by the person who said it, to be a generalisation about all doctors. So how did my answer to that question, turn into you still focusing on a generalisation that I wasn't trying to make but you seem to think I was? Why ask me the question if you were going to ignore my response and you now seem to have decided that I was making a generalisation? Yes I agree that I know I can't evidence this generalisation, because I wasn't trying to generalise, but if you think I lied when I replied that it wasn't intended to be a generalisation, ok.

And why is the generalisation that I wasn't trying to make so important to you out of all the points I did raise. given that I am not being critical of doctors? Maybe I am missing something - so it would help if you can explain why you think is important to keep mentioning that the doctors who participated on the Big Questions were not generalising about all doctors working in this field? 

The rest of my post was to try to give more detail about the issues as I started to remember more about what was said so that other posters who had not seen the programme did not have to watch it on BBC iPlayer and could hopefully still be able to understand the issues in case they had an opinion they wanted to share. I just wanted to emphasise that treatment cost was an important part of the Big Questions discussion.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 12:32:39 PM »
I'm confused. In reply #15 you asked me if I was generalising about all doctors and I replied that I didn't think it was intended by the person who said it, to be a generalisation about all doctors. So how did my answer to that question, turn into you still focusing on a generalisation that I wasn't trying to make but you seem to think I was? Why ask me the question if you were going to ignore my response and you now seem to have decided that I was making a generalisation? Yes I agree that I know I can't evidence this generalisation, because I wasn't trying to generalise, but if you think I lied when I replied that it wasn't intended to be a generalisation, ok.

And why is the generalisation that I wasn't trying to make so important to you out of all the points I did raise. given that I am not being critical of doctors? Maybe I am missing something - so it would help if you can explain why you think is important to keep mentioning that the d5octors who participated on the Big Questions were not generalising about all doctors working in this field? 

The rest of my post was to try to give more detail about the issues as I started to remember more about what was said so that other posters who had not seen the programme did not have to watch it on BBC iPlayer and could hopefully still be able to understand the issues in case they had an opinion they wanted to share. I just wanted to emphasise that treatment cost was an important part of the Big Questions discussion.

Yes Gabriella I'd go with your post, the father managed to deal very well with the case he made for his daughter, it's one of those occasions where I thought perhaps all of the aspects of the care his daughter needs should be discussed with the father present and not present at the same time.

Obviously the above isn't going to happen, I think this kind of decision is in serious need of someone very special, to make a decision that will for certain be faulty in extreme whatever decision is made, bearing in mind I'm saying I can't think of any ideal solution, the main thing I think, and only think I don't know, is the enormous cost involved can't be ignored and will have to take a considerable part of the final decision taken.

Regards ippy
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 03:19:14 PM by ippy »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: The BBC's 'The Big Questions'
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2018, 02:29:40 PM »
Yes difficult decision and I don't see any option but to factor costs into those decisions. This study claims rise in NHS deaths is due to cuts in funding. If that's the case, it's something people might to acknowledge and prepare themselves for - that they or loved ones could die due to lack of funding for care. Regardless of funding. I think the demand for free health care, given the new discoveries and expensive drug treatments that can prolong life, is always going to be higher than available funding.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/17/health-cuts-most-likely-cause-major-rise-mortality-study-claims
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi