Author Topic: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.  (Read 27219 times)

Owlswing

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #175 on: September 15, 2017, 11:38:10 PM »

I can see that, perhaps for cultural reasons, allegations made by the comparatively powerless against the powerful (such as authority figures) might be easily suppressed by power/authority. My view would be not that the powerless should be believed by default but that any investigation should not be unduly swayed by the status, influence or capabilities of those with power or authority who are accused.


Like the Westminster Parliamentary Ring?

That seems to have been hushed up long enough for all those supposed (I use the word advisedly - on legal advisedly) to have perpetrated the abuse and even murder of young boys were either totally gaga or dead.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2017, 08:49:46 AM »
I can see that, perhaps for cultural reasons, allegations made by the comparatively powerless against the powerful (such as authority figures) might be easily suppressed by power/authority. My view would be not that the powerless should be believed by default but that any investigation should not be unduly swayed by the status, influence or capabilities of those with power or authority who are accused.
But to the victim the perpetrator is almost always a powerful authority figure. That's the whole point, it is the power relationship that allows the abuse to take place. The perpetrator might not be someone that we, as outsiders, see as an authority figure but to a 10 year old child (for example) the local priest, the coach of the football team, the nun running the care home or the teacher is a powerful authority figure.

That's why it is important that they are treated as being credible and are believed as a starting point when they raise concerns because otherwise they will routinely feel that they (as an insignificant little person) will never be believed over someone who they see as an authority figure. If they don't feel they will be believed then they simply won't come forward, as happened over decades before the policy was changed to the current one.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:00:40 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2017, 10:26:16 AM »
Quite the contrary.

The reason for me starting to post on this thread was because I was concerned that some posts from a couple of posters came across to me as being rather dismissive of the significance of the allegations and findings.

Indeed it seemed to me that a whole range of the classic elements from the 'apologists' textbook were being trotted out. Specifically:

1. It all happened such a long time ago
2. Sure bad things happened but that was the norm back then
3. That the indications that a majority died of natural causes is somehow relevant to the possibility that some didn't
4. Assuming that crimes hadn't been committed, rather than believing victims as the starting point
5. Mistakenly assuming that a presumption of innocence (which applies to individuals) also somehow applies to investigating whether a crime has been committed or not
6. That really the main issue is one of record keeping
7. That making legitimate points about broader culture within an organisation based on numerous examples of institutional failures to protect children in their care of that organisation somehow amounts to tarring all individuals in that organisation as guilty

Let's start that your posting about the IPCC guidance is a huge irrelevance to your position, first of all the IPCC cannot make a fundamental change to the presumption of innocence in terms of court cases, it's guidance on how you carry out specific investigations.

Secondly as already pointed out a couple of tines and ignored by you, Anchorman is not in the position of the police here, so the guidance doesn't apply, the supposition of innocence does.

Third, and not damagingly for your point, you have conflated the statements about the mass burial with the claims of physical abuse by living individuals. Since Anchorman has been talking the mass burial, your reference to the physical abuse cases is irrelevant. This lead to your confusion in your reply 175 to not being able to understand that the no criminal activity indication so far as regards the mass burials is not in conflict with the testimony of living individuals about the physical abuse.


The rest of your points above simply arise from your continued misrepresentations. Note since they are clearly and consistently denied by those you have addressed here, your position is that those individuals are lying. This is something that elsewhere you seem to disagree with. You don't really manage what might be called consistency.

Udayana

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2017, 11:12:45 AM »
Ah right .. defending yourself against lying is also lying - what's inconsistent about that?
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2017, 11:21:55 AM »
Ah right .. defending yourself against lying is also lying - what's inconsistent about that?
No, arguing that people shouldn't say people are lying, and then saying people are lying is inconsistent.

But back on topic, I am wondering if the investigation which is wider than Smyllum is geared up for the breadth of the subject. The complexity of looking at something on this scale covering many different institutions seems beyond any indication of the team on it



Udayana

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2017, 03:19:27 PM »
No, arguing that people shouldn't say people are lying, and then saying people are lying is inconsistent.
you're not seeing an infinite regression developing there?
Quote
But back on topic, I am wondering if the investigation which is wider than Smyllum is geared up for the breadth of the subject. The complexity of looking at something on this scale covering many different institutions seems beyond any indication of the team on it
Sorry, you'll have to remind me which investigation that is ... my understanding has been that the only investigation into the unmarked and unrecorded graves at Smyllum is by the BBC and Sunday Post. The Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry has a completely different scope/remit.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #181 on: September 17, 2017, 09:19:16 AM »
you're not seeing an infinite regression developing there? Sorry, you'll have to remind me which investigation that is ... my understanding has been that the only investigation into the unmarked and unrecorded graves at Smyllum is by the BBC and Sunday Post. The Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry has a completely different scope/remit.

From Anchorman's link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41242514


'Childcare minister Mark McDonald told the Scottish Parliament that the inquiry and the prosecution services were the proper channels for taking the matter forward.'


Further the remit of the inquiry is historic abuse


https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/1080683/what-is-the-scottish-child-abuse-inquiry/
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:22:00 AM by Nearly Sane »

Udayana

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #182 on: September 17, 2017, 11:44:13 AM »
From Anchorman's link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41242514

'Childcare minister Mark McDonald told the Scottish Parliament that the inquiry and the prosecution services were the proper channels for taking the matter forward.'

Further the remit of the inquiry is historic abuse

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/1080683/what-is-the-scottish-child-abuse-inquiry/
That looks like shoulder brushing by MacDonald.

The inquiry has its own website clearly stating objectives and terms of reference, a quick read inspires no confidence that this issue will be looked into. Most of the timescale assumed for these graves does not even come into the period "within living memory" that the inquiry covers.

We will never know what happened; unnamed dead orphans make no complaints and submit no evidence to inquiries or prosecutors.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Owlswing

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #183 on: September 17, 2017, 05:19:04 PM »
That looks like shoulder brushing by MacDonald.

The inquiry has its own website clearly stating objectives and terms of reference, a quick read inspires no confidence that this issue will be looked into. Most of the timescale assumed for these graves does not even come into the period "within living memory" that the inquiry covers.

We will never know what happened; unnamed dead orphans make no complaints and submit no evidence to inquiries or prosecutors.

For which, of course, both inquirers and prosecutors and the hierarchy of the RCC are truly gratefull!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #184 on: September 19, 2017, 06:22:21 AM »
That looks like shoulder brushing by MacDonald.

The inquiry has its own website clearly stating objectives and terms of reference, a quick read inspires no confidence that this issue will be looked into. Most of the timescale assumed for these graves does not even come into the period "within living memory" that the inquiry covers.

We will never know what happened; unnamed dead orphans make no complaints and submit no evidence to inquiries or prosecutors.

Not sure it is shoulder brushing, there isn't an easy method to investigate this, as you have made clear, and given there is an inquiry it makes some sense to say that it falls within the remit.

I agree with you that there is an issue of whether the inquiry will, or indeed can, cover the size of what is being looked at, hence my comment that I don't think they are geared up for the scale of this.

Owlswing

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #185 on: September 19, 2017, 12:11:04 PM »
Not sure it is shoulder brushing, there isn't an easy method to investigate this, as you have made clear, and given there is an inquiry it makes some sense to say that it falls within the remit.

I agree with you that there is an issue of whether the inquiry will, or indeed can, cover the size of what is being looked at, hence my comment that I don't think they are geared up for the scale of this.

 . . .  or for the probability that the RCC will be of absolutely no help whatsoever toward discovering the truth.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #186 on: September 19, 2017, 12:19:03 PM »
. . .  or for the probability that the RCC will be of absolutely no help whatsoever toward discovering the truth.
It's worth noting that this is a wider enquiry than Smullyan, this order or the RCC.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2018, 06:29:45 PM »

Hard to see how this is a workable defence

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42803236

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2018, 06:46:26 PM »
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:48:56 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2018, 04:44:54 PM »
It looks to me there's a need for quite a few prosecutions of those in high places in the catholic church and some heavy sentences handed out.

These sorts of things are all part of, it looks to me, a never ending list, there's hardly a day goes by before we hear of something else of this nature perpetrated by various sections of that terrible RC organisation.

ippy


Rhiannon

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #191 on: October 14, 2018, 12:10:09 PM »
Can I just say that the point about birthdays is so important. I dated a bloke who had been raised in an orphanage; he was adopted when he was ten and every year his new family would forget his birthday. Which was on Christmas Day. The 'you aren't worth loving' message was one of his entire childhood.

As for the rest...well there are no words, are there?

Owlswing

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Re: Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.
« Reply #192 on: October 16, 2018, 12:57:05 AM »

Can I just say that the point about birthdays is so important. I dated a bloke who had been raised in an orphanage; he was adopted when he was ten and every year his new family would forget his birthday. Which was on Christmas Day. The 'you aren't worth loving' message was one of his entire childhood.

As for the rest...well there are no words, are there?


Oh there are words, lots of words, but, if Lady Smith a lady be, she will not use them though she may well have been thinking them as she was writing!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!