Life Force

[Maeght]

What you need to understand is that this does not contradict any biological or chemical aspects of our physiology. Science currently does not have any explanation for Life....except as an Emergent Property of cell activity.

It is like saying that Consciousness is a product of the brain.  It isn't. Consciousness uses the brain as a platform.

Similarly,  Life is not a product of cell activity, the cell activity is driven by Prana. 

These are philosophical speculations based on personal experiences. It is objective to the extent that similar experiences are had by millions of people around the world and people can actually be trained to experience and regulate such energies.

Speculation as you say, nothing more.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

If one practices Yoga and meditations, they will know. What we experience is what is called Prana.

Try some Yoga or deep meditations instead of merely asking questions and you will know. Anyone can ask questions.   I am sure you have no answers to most questions about Dark Energy or Dark Matter or 11 dimensions.

Yoga and meditation may or may not be helpful for some people, but one thing’s for sure – you can do them from now to Christmas but they won’t give you the answers to these things. Finding answers – real ones that is – is hard; it requires robust reasoning, evidence gathering, testing. And it's because people who aren’t romantics and woolly thinkers have put in those hard yards that you get to have medicines that can cure cancer remember?

What you need to understand is that this does not contradict any biological or chemical aspects of our physiology. Science currently does not have any explanation for Life....except as an Emergent Property of cell activity.

And what you need to understand is that my speculation about leprechauns and rainbows doesn’t contradict and laws of physics either.

And actually emergence is an explanation, albeit an incomplete one. You also struggle with the term “life”: life is a process, there’s no agreed definition of it and thus no clear boundary between non-life and life. It’s easy when you compare, say, a rock with an elephant, but how about a virus? Is that life? 

It is like saying that Consciousness is a product of the brain.  It isn't. Consciousness uses the brain as a platform.

Nope. You’ve just said the equivalent of, “it is like saying that flocking is a product of birds. It isn't. Flocking uses the birds as a platform”. Try reading a little on emergence as a phenomenon and you’ll see that it works bottom up, not top down.   

Similarly,  Life is not a product of cell activity, the cell activity is driven by Prana.

Un-argued, unqualified, un-evidenced woo that contradicts the observable evidence.   

These are philosophical speculations based on personal experiences.

Nope. As I explained to you and you just ignored, if you want to use the term “philosophical” then you need to trouble yourself with defining your terms, establishing a supporting logic etc. Your ramblings here are no more philosophical than are mine about leprechauns and pots of gold. 

It is objective to the extent that similar experiences are had by millions of people around the world and people can actually be trained to experience and regulate such energies.

You’re confusing “objective” with “subjective”. “Millions of people around the world” think lots of daft things when they use “experience” as their explanations for their experiences. Millions of people’s think the experience of touching the keys in front of them gives the explanation, “my fingers touch the keys”. They don’t though. And do you know how I know that they don’t? That’s right – I know that because lots of people before me have abandoned woo and superstition and easy answers based only on personal experience and instead have done lots and lots and lots of hard work backed by solid evidence that tells us objectively the real explanation.

Apart from all that though… 

[Sriram]

It is important to note that...

1. Prana and other such phenomena are not religious  beliefs....even though some religions may talk about them.  These are not 'supernatural' matters. They are just natural matters that we have not yet understood or investigated.

2. Science has taken so many decades to detect gravitational waves even though we live in gravity everyday. So, merely because we have not detected something yet does not mean it does not exist.

3. If Life exists everywhere on earth, it stands to reason that something is causing it.  The same resilience and determination as above should be shown to detect it instead of taking the easy way of considering mechanisms as the cause.

4. Subjective experiences should not be disregarded as irrelevant to reality. Subjectivity is the ultimate reality. It is our subjective experience that makes possible what we consider as objective truth. Life and death are only our experiences.

5. People who doubt the relevance of subjective experiences of Prana and so on, should take up advanced Yoga and meditations and  see for themselves what conclusions they arrive at, instead of sitting on the fringes and throwing questions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

It is important to note that...

1. Prana and other such phenomena are not religious  beliefs....even though some religions may talk about them.

I don’t know why you think it’s important to note that – whether or not you call gibberish religious doesn’t stop it from being gibberish – but ok. And it’s not a phenomenon at all – it’s just a speculation you’ve written down, albeit an incoherent one.

These are not 'supernatural' matters. They are just natural matters that we have not yet understood or investigated.

Again you just assume your premise with that “not yet”. So far at least, you haven’t demonstrated that there’s anything to be "understood or investigated" in the first place. Why not start there before overreaching into asserting the science just hasn't managed to do the job yet? 

2. Science has taken so many decades to detect gravitational waves even though we live in gravity everyday. So, merely because we have not detected something yet does not mean it does not exist.

No-one says otherwise. That though tells you nothing at all about whether either your speculation (“Prana”) or mine (leprechauns) exist at all.   

3. If Life exists everywhere on earth, it stands to reason that something is causing it.

Yes, biochemistry. So?

The same resilience and determination as above should be shown to detect it instead of taking the easy way of considering mechanisms as the cause.

Have you spilled your alphabet soup or something? Why do you even think you’re trying to say here?

4. Subjective experiences should not be disregarded as irrelevant to reality. Subjectivity is the ultimate reality. It is our subjective experience that makes possible what we consider as objective truth. Life and death are only our experiences.

But as you should know by now, subjective experiences of phenomena are are often very poor explanations for phenomena. Our subjective experiences tell us that the Earth is flat, that objects touch, that the blood in our veins is blue etc. Before the application of reason and evidence subjective experiences were all we had for explanations, but now we have better methods and tools to do that. Much, much better ones.     

5. People who doubt the relevance of subjective experiences of Prana and so on, should take up advanced Yoga and meditations and  see for themselves what conclusions they arrive at, instead of sitting on the fringes and throwing questions.

And people who ignore rebuttals, refutations and falsifications so as to repeat their unqualified woo should have a look at themselves and try a little intellectual honesty for a change.

[ekim]

Yoga and meditation may or may not be helpful for some people, but one thing’s for sure – you can do them from now to Christmas but they won’t give you the answers to these things. Finding answers – real ones that is – is hard; it requires robust reasoning, evidence gathering, testing. And it's because people who aren’t romantics and woolly thinkers have put in those hard yards that you get to have medicines that can cure cancer remember?

That's a fair enough comment.  I think one has to accept that when words like prana, chi, bios, life, were used, sustaining a healthy life was probably more of a personal responsibility as there was no nanny state to take on the responsibility for dealing with the results of profligate lifestyles.  The yoga's and tai chi's were the prophylaxis of the time based upon personal experiences.  The idea was to assist the body and mind in functioning as harmoniously as possible so that 'ease' was promoted and disease kept to a minimum.  The language developed was possibly related to subjective experiences rather than objective analysis.  I doubt whether the thinkers of that time were any more woolly or romantic that those who put in the hard yards today to give us neuro-toxins, nuclear weapons, artificial pollutants that engulf us etc. are psychopathic thinkers.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ekim,

That's a fair enough comment.  I think one has to accept that when words like prana, chi, bios, life, were used, sustaining a healthy life was probably more of a personal responsibility as there was no nanny state to take on the responsibility for dealing with the results of profligate lifestyles.

Most diseases don’t have anything to do with “profligate lifestyles”.

The yoga's and tai chi's were the prophylaxis of the time based upon personal experiences.  The idea was to assist the body and mind in functioning as harmoniously as possible so that 'ease' was promoted and disease kept to a minimum.  The language developed was possibly related to subjective experiences rather than objective analysis.

Maybe, but that says nothing to the claims of fact such beliefs maintained. Mental illness for example has nothing to do with being occupied by “evil spirits”.   

I doubt whether the thinkers of that time were any more woolly or romantic that those who put in the hard yards today to give us neuro-toxins, nuclear weapons, artificial pollutants that engulf us etc. are psychopathic thinkers.

Yes they were. Regardless of whether you point to cures for cancer or to nuclear weapons, these things came about because people rejected faith-based beliefs and embraced instead rationality and empiricism. That’s the point – the head full of cotton wool stuff Sriram peddles here is irrational, and more robust answers are rational. Whether or not you like the outcomes is a different matter.   

[Sriram]

ekim...

Yes...but its not that Yoga and other such methods have become irrelevant today just because we have people who put in 'hard yards' in certain areas of research.

Many 'old school' science people thought 60 years ago that these traditional methods would become irrelevant. But the revival of Yoga and such alternative therapies in recent decades has shown that this is not so. If anything, they are today better understood and more and more youngsters are taking to them.  Modern medicine has also been vacillating on various issues like diet, drugs and so on leading to suspicion and doubt on their veracity. 

Also, traditional techniques are not as much about curing diseases as about preventing and avoiding diseases.  They take a holistic approach instead of the microscopic  view that modern medicine takes.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Yes...but its not that Yoga and other such methods have become irrelevant today just because we have people who put in 'hard yards' in certain areas of research.

Yes they have if you want to claim that “Yoga and other such methods” could do the job instead. 

Many 'old school' science people thought 60 years ago that these traditional methods would become irrelevant. But the revival of Yoga and such alternative therapies in recent decades has shown that this is not so. If anything, they are today better understood and more and more youngsters are taking to them.  Modern medicine has also been vacillating on various issues like diet, drugs and so on leading to suspicion and doubt on their veracity.

More nonsense. Yoga didn’t discover antibiotics, nor could it ever have done. It was irrelevant for hard research purposes then, and it’s irrelevant for hard research purposes now. If it has some therapeutic use because people feel better for doing it that’s fine, but that’s all it does. Oh, and “suspicion and doubt on their veracity” is what leads to the dangerous idiocy of the anti-vaxxer movement.   

Also, traditional techniques are not as much about curing diseases as about preventing and avoiding diseases.  They take a holistic approach instead of the microscopic  view that modern medicine takes.

Modern medicine doesn’t take a “microscopic view” – and no matter how holistic you want to be it’s dangerous and irresponsible to suggest that people should reject proper medicine and treatments in favour of it.

PS A few posts ago I took the time to dismantle point-by-point your previous mistakes. Should I take it that you intend to ignore that too? 

[jeremyp]

If one practices Yoga and meditations, they will know.

How will they know?

Try some Yoga or deep meditations instead of merely asking questions and you will know. Anyone can ask questions.

But you apparently can’t answer them.

  I am sure you have no answers to most questions about Dark Energy or Dark Matter or 11 dimensions.

You’re right I don’t. However, I am confident (but not certain) that dark energy and dark matter exist. We observe effects in the Universe that are consistent with their existence. The 11 dimensions thing is just a hypothesis at the moment though.

Now, why don’t you try being honest and answer the questions I asked. Unless you are willing to assess your claims honestly and objectively, you can’t say you are doing science.

[Sriram]

Who said I am doing science?  I am doing philosophy. That's what I have always said.

I am only saying that science should start taking interest in such matters and not stick to the old school thinking. If we can accept things like 11 dimensions, String, Dark Matter and parallel universes as valid hypotheses, Prana, after-life and rebirth can also be valid hypotheses.   There are sufficient grounds to accept them as such. They are not 'religious beliefs' as many of you seem to think.

That is my argument, nothing else.  But then, we have the 'Two Boxes syndrome' to contend with, haven't we?!!!  That is the problem. 

[Stranger]

Who said I am doing science?  I am doing philosophy. That's what I have always said.

You're not doing philosophy either. Where are the reasoned arguments?

I am only saying that science should start taking interest in such matters and not stick to the old school thinking.

Take an interest in something that you can't define, have no evidence for, have no arguments to support, that does something, but you can't say what, that makes life work?

 

If we can accept things like 11 dimensions, String, Dark Matter and parallel universes as valid hypotheses...

Your ignorance of science is showing again. Eleven dimensions is a hypothesis, because it is attempting to solve an actual problem in science and can make (in principle, anyway) predictions about the world. Dark matter is really just a label for observations - there are several hypotheses that might explain it. Parallel universes range from reasonable extrapolations to pure speculation.

...Prana, after-life and rebirth can also be valid hypotheses.

No, they aren't. At least not until you can provide at least a hint of a reason to take them seriously. Your Prana or "life force" (vitalism) has already been abandoned by science due to lack of any evidence or need for it, and afterlife is nothing but a superstition.

There are sufficient grounds to accept them as such.

Such as...?

That is my argument, nothing else.

You haven't made an argument. You have provided no evidence and no reasoning - you have nothing but faith and superstition.

But then, we have the 'Two Boxes syndrome' to contend with, haven't we?!!!

No - we have rational and reasonable people, who like evidence and/or reasoning in order to accept something, and we have you, who seems to think ideas should be taken seriously just because you like them...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Who said I am doing science?  I am doing philosophy. That's what I have always said.

I am only saying that science should start taking interest in such matters and not stick to the old school thinking. If we can accept things like 11 dimensions, String, Dark Matter and parallel universes as valid hypotheses, Prana, after-life and rebirth can also be valid hypotheses.   There are sufficient grounds to accept them as such. They are not 'religious beliefs' as many of you seem to think.

That is my argument, nothing else.  But then, we have the 'Two Boxes syndrome' to contend with, haven't we?!!!  That is the problem. 

Stranger has got there before me, but briefly:

1. Your content-free speculation about a "life force" is no more philosophy than my content free speculation about leprechauns. I've told you several times what philosophy actually entails, and just ignoring that so as to repeat the same mistake does you no credit.

2. It's not "old school thinking" for science to confine itself to phenomena that are investigable. Science is necessarily indifferent to content-free speculations. If you want people who do science to investigate your statement "life force" then it's for you to provide something to be investigated, as indeed it would be if I wanted science to investigate my content free statement "leprechauns".

3. "Valid hypotheses" are valid because they rely on limited evidence to construct a possible explanatory model that may or may not be confirmed once the data is in. "Prana" etc fails for that purpose because there's no evidence for it at all - it's just white noise. I may as well assert that if an 11-dimension universe is a legitimate hypothesis, then so are leprechauns. Can you see the problem there? Anything?

4. There are no grounds to accept "Prana" as a legitimate hypothesis. If you think otherwise, then – finally - tell us what they are.

5. As I already explained and you just ignored, whether or not you attach the term "religious" to nonsense doesn't affect its status as, literally, non-sense.         

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

These things have been explained at length. We have also discussed reincarnation and after-life.  The reasons why we think these are real phenomena has also been explained.

The problem is in your minds. Just as religious fanatics get locked into their beliefs, many of you have gotten locked into disbelief because of the Two boxes syndrome.  You are just unable to integrate your thoughts and ideas and take a uniform view.  If the mind is not ready, nothing can be understood.

I only write on such matters with the hope that someone might be ready to understand such matters.

For the rest I can suggest some breathing exercises if you want. Done over a few months they might loosen up your tightly knotted up minds and allow you to see the light.  Let me know if you want to learn these exercises.

Cheers.

Sriram

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

These things have been explained at length. We have also discussed reincarnation and after-life.  The reasons why we think these are real phenomena has also been explained.

No they haven’t – they’ve been asserted, and any attempt you have made to validate those assertions has been quickly falsified. That you just ignore the falsifications doesn’t change that. 

The problem is in your minds. Just as religious fanatics get locked into their beliefs, many of you have gotten locked into disbelief because of the Two boxes syndrome.  You are just unable to integrate your thoughts and ideas and take a uniform view.  If the mind is not ready, nothing can be understood.

No, the problem is with your mind because it makes various claims of fact that, when examined, collapse. And when they do collapse you just ignore the problem and repeat the same errors over and over again. Your big mistake here is to overreach – if you confine yourself to saying that yoga for example may have some therapeutic effect, that’s fine. When you claim it to have investigative and discovery properties about the observable world though, then it all goes wrong very quickly. The chemo for example that you wrongly said can’t cure cancer wasn’t discovered because lots of people did yoga. It was discovered because lots of people did lots of hard work that you deride as “microscopic” but that nonetheless produces real world discoveries that your mystical practices never can.

Same with your supposed “life force”. You assert it, then you make some very bad arguments to support it that are quickly falsified, then you ignore the problems you’ve given yourself and repeat the initial assertion. Endlessly. Try to get this into your mind: for epistemological purposes your claim “life force” and my claim “leprechauns” are identical. The moment you grasp why that is it the moment you'll finally allow yourself to learn something.         

I only write on such matters with the hope that someone might be ready to understand such matters.

No, you “write on such matters” because your ability to think is badly compromised but you lack the honesty to engage with why that is. Surely it would be more honest and, ultimately, more beneficial to you if you actually addressed even one of the falsifications you’ve had and tried at least either to rebut or, when you can’t, to change your position. 

For the rest I can suggest some breathing exercises if you want. Done over a few months they might loosen up your tightly knotted up minds and allow you to see the light.  Let me know if you want to learn these exercises.

I’ve been pretty good at breathing these last 59 years so I’m fairly sure I don’t need lessons on it thanks. You on the other hand badly need lessons in both reason and honesty. In the unlikely even you feel like availing yourself of either or both, I’m here to help.

[Enki]

Hi everyone,

These things have been explained at length. We have also discussed reincarnation and after-life.  The reasons why we think these are real phenomena has also been explained.

The problem is in your minds. Just as religious fanatics get locked into their beliefs, many of you have gotten locked into disbelief because of the Two boxes syndrome.  You are just unable to integrate your thoughts and ideas and take a uniform view.  If the mind is not ready, nothing can be understood.

I only write on such matters with the hope that someone might be ready to understand such matters.

For the rest I can suggest some breathing exercises if you want. Done over a few months they might loosen up your tightly knotted up minds and allow you to see the light.  Let me know if you want to learn these exercises.

Cheers.

Sriram

If I was in need of breathing exercises, you're the last person I would think of seeking advice from, if your total inability to deal with the arguments that are ranged against you is anything to go by. 

[ekim]

Ekim,

Most diseases don’t have anything to do with “profligate lifestyles”.

Maybe, but that says nothing to the claims of fact such beliefs maintained. Mental illness for example has nothing to do with being occupied by “evil spirits”.   

Yes they were. Regardless of whether you point to cures for cancer or to nuclear weapons, these things came about because people rejected faith-based beliefs and embraced instead rationality and empiricism. That’s the point – the head full of cotton wool stuff Sriram peddles here is irrational, and more robust answers are rational. Whether or not you like the outcomes is a different matter.

If profligate is seen in the sense of extravagant or wasteful in the use of resources, I think you will find that it features quite a lot within the top 10 diseases resulting in death, like dietary excesses, excessive air, water and soil pollution , something the whole ecosystem is suffering from.  I don't know of any of the yogas which introduce 'evil spirits' into the scenario but if they did then it would be counter productive in the sense that it could remove personal responsibility and externalise it to those 'spirits'.  It's not for me to comment on Sriram, but I believe that the yogis of the past have tried to peddle the way to irrational inner bliss and joy as opposed to outer self centred or egocentric rationality.  I believe it is a mistake to mix the language of inner subjectivity with outer objectivity but that's just me, a bag of chemicals, giving an opinion.

[Maeght]

Hi everyone,

These things have been explained at length. We have also discussed reincarnation and after-life.  The reasons why we think these are real phenomena has also been explained.

The problem is in your minds. Just as religious fanatics get locked into their beliefs, many of you have gotten locked into disbelief because of the Two boxes syndrome.  You are just unable to integrate your thoughts and ideas and take a uniform view.  If the mind is not ready, nothing can be understood.

I only write on such matters with the hope that someone might be ready to understand such matters.

For the rest I can suggest some breathing exercises if you want. Done over a few months they might loosen up your tightly knotted up minds and allow you to see the light.  Let me know if you want to learn these exercises.

Cheers.

Sriram

You've explained nothing. Claimed lots from inside your box, but not explained anything.

[SteveH]

Science quite rightly abandoned any search for a life force over a century ago.

[Roses]

Hi everyone,

I have written about this before...why not again.

Life could be caused by some amorphous energy like 'substance' that is possibly present everywhere on earth.  It could be reacting with certain chemical molecules and causing what we experience as 'life'.

Just as electricity gives 'life' to most man made products, this 'life force' could be inducing power and intelligent reactions within organisms.

In Yogic science this substance is called 'Prana'. Once it enters any organism it gives it life and when it departs the organism is dead.

Science has not so far identified any such substance .....but then science always takes its time. Maybe sometime in the future, science may get there.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

More garbage!