Author Topic: Ethics and treatment of human remains.  (Read 1443 times)

Anchorman

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Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« on: January 29, 2021, 10:07:53 PM »
 I'm posting this cut and paste with the author's permission. It comes under ethics, since the treatment of the ancient dead isn't confined to Egyptology; the science of forensic archaeology has meant literally tens of thousands of human skeletons stored in museums or university laboratories. The vexed question of how to treat or display those remains is a hot potato in the fields of both archaeology in general, and Egyptology in particular Kara Cooney - Egyptologist. . Should mummies be on display in museums? Should coffins be opened in press conference type settings? These issues are blowing up within Egypt society right now, evidenced by the attached article. It's an important topic. As someone who studies coffins myself, I am of two minds. On the one hand, if you cover your person and your burial with gold and riches, I can't expect any other human reaction than a re-commodification of that material-through theft, treasure hunting, tourism, museum display and ticket sales. Mummies were created specifically to draw the gaze of an exclusive group of other high elites, to prove their superhuman ability to avoid decay itself. Wrapped mummies were meant to work on the minds of lower status groups of ancient Egyptians to manufacture power. My work focuses on how elites created such social power through their burials, looking at ancient theft and reuse of coffins to stay in the game even when economic crisis hit. I can justify, in my mind at least, the social importance of such research. On the other hand, these are Egyptian bodies. We in the United States have stopped (or should have stopped) displaying the bodies of Black and Indigenous people in our "natural" history museums and other places. Such sensitivity is important. Many Egyptians feel uncomfortable with the commodification of their ancestors, and I understand that. There must be other ways of releasing such discoveries to the public. On a personal note, when I find myself in the presence of an ancient dead person (laying in a coffin under my study), I say hello, in my way. I treat that body with respect. I try to make my work a gift to their continued presence. But I nonetheless try to figure out how bodily preservation still works on our simple human minds today, but wow, it does... :) Uproar after scholar bans excavation of Egyptian mummies. al-monitor.com . .
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2021, 10:35:18 PM »
I believe I'm correct in saying that modern Egyptians are not descended from the ancient Egyptians.
A former vicar of mine went to a parish on the Isle of Wight after he left us. While he was there, an Anglo-Saxon burial ground was discovered. The skeletons had to be moved, so, after determining that they had been Christians, not pagans, they were re-buried with a special service, which included a reading of the Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon.


When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Owlswing

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2021, 08:49:33 AM »

I believe I'm correct in saying that modern Egyptians are not descended from the ancient Egyptians.
A former vicar of mine went to a parish on the Isle of Wight after he left us. While he was there, an Anglo-Saxon burial ground was discovered. The skeletons had to be moved, so, after determining that they had been Christians, not pagans, they were re-buried with a special service, which included a reading of the Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon.


And what, precisely, might/would have been done had they been Pagans?

Owlswing

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The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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SteveH

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2021, 08:53:08 AM »
And what, precisely, might/would have been done had they been Pagans?

Owlswing

)O(
I don't know, but I'd've thought determining their religion first, rather than just going ahead with a Christian service, was showing respect to them, so get off your high horse and remove the chip from your shoulder.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Nearly Sane

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2021, 09:43:35 AM »
And what, precisely, might/would have been done had they been Pagans?

Owlswing

)O(

Related to the topic, I'm not sure what has happened to the topic of pagan remains in museums since this


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/feb/05/religion.artnews

Anchorman

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2021, 09:57:10 AM »
I believe I'm correct in saying that modern Egyptians are not descended from the ancient Egyptians.
A former vicar of mine went to a parish on the Isle of Wight after he left us. While he was there, an Anglo-Saxon burial ground was discovered. The skeletons had to be moved, so, after determining that they had been Christians, not pagans, they were re-buried with a special service, which included a reading of the Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon.



 

As to the ethnicity of modern Egyptians?
DNA would indicate that there are very strong links with Egyptians in the three millenia BC....but the question of 'ethnic Egyptian' itself, is moot.
From prehistoric times, influx of traders from Lybia as well as the fertile Crescent, not to mention sub-Saharan Africa, who settled and interbred, are well known. Through the centuries, add Greeks, Asiatic, Indo-Europeans, etc, and you have a nice cosmopolitan mix!
As to reburial of Anglo-Saxons?
Yes, I know there have been some such ceremomnies; however thousands more lie in cardboard boxes in university and museum storehouses.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2021, 09:59:46 AM »
And what, precisely, might/would have been done had they been Pagans?

Owlswing

)O(

   
Wouldn't that depend on whether a religious nature of the find could be made?
As I understand it 'paganism' covered a multitude of beliefs, bot amongst Britons and Saxons.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2021, 10:19:36 AM »

I don't know, but I'd've thought determining their religion first, rather than just going ahead with Christian service, was showing respect to them, so get off your high horse and remove the chip from your shoulder.


And you get off your high horse before you fall off!

How was their attachment to Christianity determined and with what degree of accuracy?

I asked because I have been involved with two of the re-burial discussions involving museums who have held remains long after any scientific/historical information was likely to result from the continued non-reburial.

Jesus, Christians can be quick enough to jump when their beliefs are belittled ignored (not necessarily on the Forum). All I am asking for is equal treatment of those who may well have been my religion's followers, or could possibly have been my religions followers. If they died before Zero AD they will almost certainly have been pagan of one sort or another.

Owlswing

)O(   
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

SteveH

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2021, 11:39:36 AM »
And you get off your high horse before you fall off!

How was their attachment to Christianity determined and with what degree of accuracy?

I asked because I have been involved with two of the re-burial discussions involving museums who have held remains long after any scientific/historical information was likely to result from the continued non-reburial.

Jesus, Christians can be quick enough to jump when their beliefs are belittled ignored (not necessarily on the Forum). All I am asking for is equal treatment of those who may well have been my religion's followers, or could possibly have been my religions followers. If they died before Zero AD they will almost certainly have been pagan of one sort or another.

Owlswing

)O(
They were Anglo-Saxons, so they'd've been a good few centuries AD. I don't know how their religion was determined, but the manner of their burial, and objects buried with them would no doubt provide clues. Also, if it was possible to determine their age, that would indicate whether they died in the pagan period or the Christian period.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Anchorman

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2021, 12:07:12 PM »
 We don't know what exactly the various tribes of Angles, Saxons and Jutes believed. Certainly the Jutes were more akin to the Danes and Norse, the Angles had differing cultural traits, and the early Saxons a combination of Norse, Brythonic and as yet unidentified practices. How could a 'pagan' ceremony encompass such diversity?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2021, 12:09:53 PM »
Another thought: maybe the area where they were buried wasn't settled until the Christian period.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Anchorman

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2021, 12:20:06 PM »
Another thought: maybe the area where they were buried wasn't settled until the Christian period.
   

We know that, for araound two centuries, the gradual 'Christianisation' of the Saxons resulted in an amalgum of their pagan and Christian beliefs - hedging their bets! Burials have been found with both a Thor hammer and a Christian Cross orChi-Rho symbol.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2021, 09:31:31 PM »

 We don't know what exactly the various tribes of Angles, Saxons and Jutes believed. Certainly, the Jutes were more akin to the Danes and Norse, the Angles had differing cultural traits, and the early Saxons a combination of Norse, Brythonic and as yet unidentified practices. How could a 'pagan' ceremony encompass such diversity?


In a lot of cases, the main differences between tribal pagan beliefs were in the deities, male and female, that were the target of the 'prayers' of the participants.

Owlswing

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The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: Ethics and treatment of human remains.
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2021, 11:37:51 AM »
 The Petrie was ever a favourite stamping ground of mine when I was undergoing my 'practical's in the lab at the British Museum -(which involved handling mummified remains).
Their collection of early Egyptian artefacts adds much to our knowledge of the development of the religion and society in the Nile Valley in the fourth and third millennia BC.
I'd urge anyone interested to take a shuftie.
Anyhow, here's a thoughtful blog on the display of human remains.

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-in-museums/2017/03/28/should-human-remains-be-displayed-in-museums/
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."