A disunited kingdom?

[Anchorman]

          With the state of the Stormont Assembly, the unrest over the Northern Ireland Protocol, the continuing domination of Independence politics in Scotland, what is the future of the UK?

[Aruntraveller]

          With the state of the Stormont Assembly, the unrest over the Northern Ireland Protocol, the continuing domination of Independence politics in Scotland, what is the future of the UK?

Very precarious.

The activities of the Conservative administration have, of course, made the situation much worse in at least 2 significant ways.

They used membership of the EU to persuade Scots to vote for the union in the Independence Referendum and then we got Brexit, and they negotiated the NI protocol putting a border in place between Ruk and NI.

As masterstrokes to guarantee fragmentation of the Union I can't fault these moves.

[Anchorman]

Very precarious.
 
The activities of the Conservative administration have, of course, made the situation much worse in at least 2 significant ways.

They used membership of the EU to persuade Scots to vote for the union in the Independence Referendum and then we got Brexit, and they negotiated the NI protocol putting a border in place between Ruk and NI.

As masterstrokes to guarantee fragmentation of the Union I can't fault these moves.

   
The ultimate Irony Being that Johnson self styled himself 'minister for the Union'. Another of his notablwe triumphs which may well go down in history.
The DUP, not Sinn Fein, may well be the ultimate instrument which removes NI from the union.
Funny, that......

[Gordon]

Good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/15/scottish-support-for-monarchy-falls-to-45-poll-reveals

[Anchorman]

Good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/15/scottish-support-for-monarchy-falls-to-45-poll-reveals

     

Not surprised, partly because monarchy, historically, meant something different in Scotland than England.
Because of nearly two centuries of child or absentee monarchs in the period before the union of the crowns, Scotland became used to rule by an inner circle of factions. Following 1603, the monarchs became absentee landlords 0 and when they DID try to interfere with politics, the consequences were disastrous. The concepts of "I kent his faither", and "We're a Jock Tamson's bairns' have deep roots.
As Ludovic Kennedy wrote;
"The Anglo centric comedy sketch of 'I know my place', whilst funny, is also partly true.
In my experience, the average Scot does NOT know his place, or, if he does, chooses to ignore it"

[SteveH]

Federalism.
Scotland, NI, and Wales should be given binding referendums on independence, and then what's left of the UK should be divided up int a number of large regions of roughly equal population, each of which will have its own parliament and first minister, with members based on current constituencies. Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland should be one region each if they reject independence in their referendums, and England divided into about six regions. Westminster would then only deal with matters that affect the whole of (whatever's left of) the UK, eg defence.

[Anchorman]

Federalism.
Scotland, NI, and Wales should be given binding referendums on independence, and then what's left of the UK should be divided up int a number of large regions of roughly equal population, each of which will have its own parliament and first minister, with members based on current constituencies. Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland should be one region each if they reject independence in their referendums, and England divided into about six regions. Westminster would then only deal with matters that affect the whole of (whatever's left of) the UK, eg defence.

   



Yet the concept of 'region' is anathema to many Scots.
We are a nation, nothing more, nothing less.
Federalism would only work if all four nations had an equal voice in the federal parliament.
This would disadvantage England by dint of their larger population.
Yet anything less would deny the individual nations an equal voice in a federation.

[SteveH]

   



Yet the concept of 'region' is anathema to many Scots.
We are a nation, nothing more, nothing less.
Federalism would only work if all four nations had an equal voice in the federal parliament.
This would disadvantage England by dint of their larger population.
Yet anything less would deny the individual nations an equal voice in a federation.

But as I said, there would first be independence referendums in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, so if that's how the Scots felt, they could vote for full independence, and let the rest of the UK go federal. Same for Wales and N. Ireland. (Maybe, with the agreement of the republic, the NI ref. could be three-way: remain in the UK, become independent, or join the republic.)

[ProfessorDavey]

Federalism would only work if all four nations had an equal voice in the federal parliament.
This would disadvantage England by dint of their larger population.
Yet anything less would deny the individual nations an equal voice in a federation.

People have a voice - not nations, which are simply constructs of people.

So any approach that would give an equal say to, let's say Wales with approx. 3 million people, compared to England with approx. 56 million people would be completely undemocratic.

To suggest that 'nations' should be given an equal say is an argument that the voice of an individual who happens to live in a nation with a small population (usually completely by chance of birth) is somehow more important than the voice of an individual who happens to live in a nation with a larger population (usually completely by chance of birth).

I have never accepted this notion that the 'voice' of Scotland isn't heard because of England - the reality is that the views of 5 million people cannot take precedence over the views of 56 million - that's called democracy, chum. And it is exactly the same for any 5 million people, regardless of whether they call themselves a nation or not. The 9 million people in London will never be able to shout louder democratically than the 58 million who don't live in London.

And, of course, independence doesn't alter this - were Scotland to become independent, you'd get exactly same issue - the views of the tiny population of the Highlands and Islands never being able to shout louder than the central belt.

[ProfessorDavey]

Federalism.
Scotland, NI, and Wales should be given binding referendums on independence, and then what's left of the UK should be divided up int a number of large regions of roughly equal population, each of which will have its own parliament and first minister, with members based on current constituencies. Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland should be one region each if they reject independence in their referendums, and England divided into about six regions. Westminster would then only deal with matters that affect the whole of (whatever's left of) the UK, eg defence.

Isn't that exactly what the Blair government planned, but it got no further than Scotland, Wales, NI and London. Effectively killed off when the North East voted against a devolved assembly.

[Aruntraveller]

Kudos to Channel 4's Paul McNamara, addressing our PM:

“Less than two years in this deal, this protocol, has caused the collapse of the Northern Ireland Assembly, economic hardship for firms in Northern Ireland and now needs a major revision.

“Prime minister, you must be furious with whoever signed up to a deal this bad!”

No wonder they want to defang C4.

[Udayana]

Kudos to Channel 4's Paul McNamara, addressing our PM:

“Less than two years in this deal, this protocol, has caused the collapse of the Northern Ireland Assembly, economic hardship for firms in Northern Ireland and now needs a major revision.

“Prime minister, you must be furious with whoever signed up to a deal this bad!”

No wonder they want to defang C4.

Yes, that was good ... and Johnson admitted that he had not understood the agreement.

[Udayana]

The problem with the protocol is political not down to details of the implementation. The DUP will find it unacceptable even if in practical terms all actual checks and forms are eliminated as there will always be the notional "border in the Irish sea".

The only real solution is for unionists in NI to stop voting for the DUP and vote for a more liberal party.
 

[Anchorman]

A pithy comment on the NI fankle by the 'Wee Ginger Dug'.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2022/05/17/the-banquet-of-consequences/

[Anchorman]

 I'm not one for snap opinion polls, but this one might just be significant - it shows the trends, rather than a snapshot; and what it shows is in increasing rift between Scotland, and, to a lesser extent, Northern Ireland, and the central Westminster government.
I see no evidence that Truss' policies will do anything other than accelerate the division.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22483799.scottish-independence-record-level-support-annual-survey/?fbclid=IwAR2G2LKDYddmUCrlUEHlqo67KskSUHFopz1GJSqz4KzeflR3vMBdN5PGXQ0

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes.

Single Transferable Vote together with a move out of the Palace of Westminster into a building where representatives do not sit in a Victorian imitation of church choir stalls but at individual desks. And they should b provided with a sufficient level of electronic equipment which will enable them to {at the least}cast an appropriate vote without having to waste ten minutes walking through a voting lobby.

[jeremyp]

Yes.

Single Transferable Vote together with a move out of the Palace of Westminster into a building where representatives do not sit in a Victorian imitation of church choir stalls but at individual desks. And they should b provided with a sufficient level of electronic equipment which will enable them to {at the least}cast an appropriate vote without having to waste ten minutes walking through a voting lobby.

We have the technology now so they don't even need to be in the building. Although, that might not be a good idea.

I think there would be a lot of push back against leaving the Palace of Westminster (aren't they going to have to while the renovations are going on?). You can do the electronics stuff even in the current building. In fact, you could do it quite easily with a phone app.