Author Topic: 'Human consciousness: a tragic misstep'  (Read 1923 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: 'Human consciousness: a tragic misstep'
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2023, 10:07:47 AM »
I think your misgivings are well grounded. I certainly agree with N that the absence of any religious belief systems from which to derive our moral norms requires a complete overhaul in the thinking of unbelievers. However, he seems to think that any 'drive', simply because humans experience it, has no validity above any other, and that 'stronger humans' (usually male in his thought) are the ones who should determine the values that others live by. In such a scenario things could get very messy indeed. No doubt we'd have a society in which the likes of that vile Met Police officer, recently convicted, ran riot, simply because they were 'expressing their drives'.
Yes, his ideas seem to object to religions championing the opposite of biologically driven 'strengths' such as the meek, the humble, the merciful, the compassionate, the poor, the down-trodden etc. A moral outlook that values and encourages these attributes would have to develop for a society to progress in order to balance the 'survival of the fittest' biological mantra, which could lead to outlooks such as that of the Met police officer.   

Quote
In fact Nietzsche was far from living out these ideas in his own life, except in his dedication to his work. He appears to have been the mildest of men, and a rare self-revelatory quote shows the contradictions in his make-up. Can't remember it exactly, but it goes somethings like this "A few moments of conversation in a railway carriage with simple, ordinary people, and my whole philosophy is in ruins".

I think the only way for an atheistic society to run would be to accept that altruism and general humane behaviour have their roots in evolutionary development. Social groups which cooperate tend to thrive, and develop an evolutionary advantage. The values such societies hold may well coincide exactly with those that many religious denominations hold dear, but without the belief that such values have any supernatural origin.
Agree with your last paragraph but personally I think the supernatural part serves a useful purpose. Religious motivations IRL influence individuals from seeking retribution or power over someone, based on a belief in accountability to a supernatural entity. It prevents a messy situation and helps the individuals involves gain peace of mind because they put accountability and justice in the hands of an infallible entity. I very much doubt accountability to their peers would have the same effect. With the current fallible process of accountability to their peers as the only consequence, would there not be more chance of dissatisfaction with the justice of any outcome, as well as an incentive to calculate the odds of cheating the system, or gamble on no one finding out if they act against laws and moral norms?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63431
Re: 'Human consciousness: a tragic misstep'
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2023, 10:13:25 AM »
Yes, his ideas seem to object to religions championing the opposite of biologically driven 'strengths' such as the meek, the humble, the merciful, the compassionate, the poor, the down-trodden etc. A moral outlook that values and encourages these attributes would have to develop for a society to progress in order to balance the 'survival of the fittest' biological mantra, which could lead to outlooks such as that of the Met police officer.   


I think this shows a common misunderstanding of 'survival of the fittest' and moves it from a descriptive statement to a prescriptive statement. It also moves it into the area of ethics where it is not applicable.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: 'Human consciousness: a tragic misstep'
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2023, 10:46:01 AM »
I think this shows a common misunderstanding of 'survival of the fittest' and moves it from a descriptive statement to a prescriptive statement. It also moves it into the area of ethics where it is not applicable.
True - I worded it incorrectly - as it is descriptive. The ability to reproduce ensures survival and outward characteristics of friendliness and friendly behaviour may be the trait that gave us the biological advantage by encouraging bonding with the group and cooperation.

Empathy and the “gateway of compassion” seem to increase friendliness. Although human friendliness also has a flip side - humans can be very aggressive and violent towards people they do not feel friendliness to ie those outside their group.

Given the increasing inequality we are all a part of, it seems humans have not been making sufficient use of our human compassion. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi