Author Topic: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.  (Read 15898 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #325 on: February 28, 2024, 11:56:21 AM »
Vlad,

Scientism - even if anyone here actually argued for it - did no such thing.

Yes, but that doesn't give you licence to invent any personal meaning you like and then to use it as a straw man to make your point.

By "bicycle saddles" I actually mean "daffodils". Is the description "Vlad is well-known for sniffing bicycle saddles" therefore ok with you?

Why not? 

The only one here who confuses the terms he attemtps (either unwittingly or wilfully) appears to be you.
More projection here than a chain of Imax cinemas

Outrider

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #326 on: February 28, 2024, 01:50:58 PM »
An assumption that seems to be rooted in the fallacy of modernity and linguistic totalitarianism.

You're cleaving to an antiquated definition, I'm pointing out that if you want to be understood you have to use language as people use it - if either of us is a 'linguistic totalitarian', it's not me.

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The same language and concepts are still being used as professional language in the fields of theology and philosophy.

But these communications aren't being put out for the benefit of theologists and philosophers, they're being put out to the laity.

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Concepts don't automatically have a sell by date like cheese.

The point is, though, that if you still call it 'cyse' rather than cheese no-one's going to know you're talking about cheese because that's no longer current usage.

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Only giving people concepts they can understand is patronising guff.

You're confusing concepts and the language used to convey them. Whether the concept is outdated is an open question, but whether the language is outdated really isn't.

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Science shouldn't dumb down and neither should other fields.

There's a reason your archenemy, Professor Dawkins, held the Simonyi Professorship for the Public Understanding of Science - is there an ecumenical equivalent?
 
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Religion on the other hand is not totally dependent on the intellectual acquisition of facts or concepts.

Quite. The evidence suggests it's dependent on the lack of intellectual acquisition.

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Which brings us to the totalitarian pseudo ownership of language claimed by scientism, an example par excellence being the appropriation of the term nothing by new atheist scientists like Krauss., who claimed that what people were referring to in the past was an airless vacuum.

When you talk to people that's what they think 'nothing' is, typically. That's not linguistic totalitarianism, that's understanding current usage.

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He failed to realise that philosophers were actually talking about the absence of anything one could think of or possibly think of.

I suspect he didn't forget, he didn't care - he wasn't writing for philosophers, he was writing for the general public. His scientific papers spell out what he means in more technical language because that's the appropriate language for that format.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #327 on: February 28, 2024, 03:28:10 PM »
Vlad,

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An assumption that seems to be rooted in the fallacy of modernity and linguistic totalitarianism. The same language and concepts are still being used as professional language in the fields of theology and philosophy. Concepts don't automatically have a sell by date like cheese.

More drivel. Concepts may not, but language can do. Unless you communicate using language and meanings that are understandable in ordinary dialogue to the other party discussion is impossible. It’s no use for example describing someone as “nice” and intending the meaning as Chaucer would have understood it (ie that the person is a right bastard) unless you also share your anachronistic (or, in your case, often just plain wrong – see your personal re-definition of "methodological naturalism" for example) versions of the meanings you intend.       

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Only giving people concepts they can understand is patronising guff. Science shouldn't dumb down and neither should other fields.

No-ones suggesting dumbing down. What you’re being told instead though is that wilful or ignorant obscurantism is the enemy of dialogue, not its friend.

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Religion on the other hand is not totally dependent on the intellectual acquisition of facts or concepts.

Yes – it relies on a great deal of guessing that it gussies up with the term “faith” too.

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Which brings us to the totalitarian pseudo ownership of language claimed by scientism,…

No it doesn’t, and you should stop lying about that. “Scientism” (even if anyone actually argued for it) has nothing to say about linguistics.

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…an example par excellence being the appropriation of the term nothing by new atheist scientists like Krauss., who claimed that what people were referring to in the past was an airless vacuum. He failed to realise that philosophers were actually talking about the absence of anything one could think of or possibly think of. That still remains a current philosophical concept.

Wrong again. What he actually did was to write for a non-specialist audience using terms and meanings in common usage. There’s no “totalitarianism” there at all, despite your continued abuse of that term.   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 03:40:41 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #328 on: February 28, 2024, 03:29:01 PM »
Vlad,

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More projection here than a chain of Imax cinemas

That’s very Trumpian. No matter how well reasoned and evidenced the corrections of your multiple mistakes you’re given, rather than deal with the problem by engaging with it you just accuse the person schooling you of your own mistakes with no reasoning or evidence of your own at all while you scurry away ready to return another day with exactly the same mistakes.

What do you get from this behaviour?   
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Aruntraveller

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Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #330 on: February 28, 2024, 07:59:02 PM »
Arun,

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I'll just leave this here for no particular reason:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/28/humpback-whales-sex-photographed-homosexual-behavior

Yes I saw that. Apparently when they decoded their whale songs they were show tunes too!

(Look, can I just apologise sincerely for that disgraceful barely joke that ignorantly reduced same sex participants to a lazy cliche when I actually don't doubt for one moment that both whales were complex and nuanced beings about whom far more interesting things can be said than their musical preferences? I'm a work in progress. What can I say?) 
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 10:08:25 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

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