'Do we need a Celebration Day for loved ones who have died?-

[Nearly Sane]

I've had a few weeks where I've been being reminded of the 1 year anniversaries of the deaths and funerals of two close family members. Those dates have significance and affect me. A day of 'celebration' is not about them or me it would seem. This seems well intentioned but pointless to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz994g78rn0o

[Aruntraveller]

Other countries do have days when they celebrate/remember the dead, notably around 31 October.

Poland has All Saints’ Day (Dzień Wszystkich Świętych) - visiting a cemetery in Poland at this time is quite an experience. Everyone comes out and decorates the graves with candles and flowers. I don't know whether it actually is a celebration but it feels like one:

[Nearly Sane]

Other countries do have days when they celebrate/remember the dead, notably around 31 October.

Poland has All Saints’ Day (Dzień Wszystkich Świętych) - visiting a cemetery in Poland at this time is quite an experience. Everyone comes out and decorates the graves with candles and flowers. I don't know whether it actually is a celebration but it feels like one:

Indeed, the Christian/Pagan crossover festival around 31st October to 2nd November is ingrained in my psyche from growing up though West of Scotland Catholicism didn't go for much celebration.

[SteveH]

All Souls Day is for that purpose, on 2nd November, with a special service on the nearest Sunday.

[Nearly Sane]

All Souls Day is for that purpose, on 2nd November, with a special service on the nearest Sunday.

Though its connection with religion may be an issue with it being a more secular celebration

[SteveH]

This proposal sounds to me like Dry January and Mothers' Day - dopey ideas by people with no idea of history or tradition, specifically Lent, Mothering Sunday and All Souls' Day, all of which can be observed unhypocritically whether or not you believe in any version oof Christianity.

[SteveH]

Though its connection with religion may be an issue with it being a more secular celebration

See my post above, which crossed with yours.

[Nearly Sane]

This proposal sounds to me like Dry January and Mothers' Day - dopey ideas by people with no idea of history or tradition, specifically Lent, Mothering Sunday and All Souls' Day, all of which can be observed unhypocritically whether or not you believe in any version oof Christianity.

  I think that thinking it has no implications for people ignores history. It's not a high profile celebration, it's not generalised. It would have to effectively be introduced as it's not a real tradition.

[ProfessorDavey]

I've had a few weeks where I've been being reminded of the 1 year anniversaries of the deaths and funerals of two close family members. Those dates have significance and affect me. A day of 'celebration' is not about them or me it would seem. This seems well intentioned but pointless to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz994g78rn0o

No we don't.

Everyone grieves and remembers in their own way, and for many people specific dates or times of year will be significant - most obviously birthdays and date of death. To try to shoe-horn this into a specific day which may have no meaning whatsoever in terms of the life of the person being remembered seems just weird to me.

And for those closest I've always felt that the notion of remembering specifically on birthdays and date of death doesn't cut it either. When you are very close and particularly when the death is recent and 'raw' memories come at all times, and unexpected times - something on the radio is a reminder, a piece of music, an off hand comment etc etc. So I've actually always felt that if someone is focussing on the birthdays and date of death to remember then likely they weren't actually all that close as memories happen a hell of a lot more often than once or twice a year. To push that further to some random 'Celebration day for the dead' seems really to spectacularly miss the reality of grief and remembrance of loved ones.

[ProfessorDavey]

I've had a few weeks where I've been being reminded of the 1 year anniversaries of the deaths and funerals of two close family members. Those dates have significance and affect me. A day of 'celebration' is not about them or me it would seem. This seems well intentioned but pointless to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz994g78rn0o

I note also that the BBC article is headed:

"Here, a range of voices share their thoughts about whether there is a need for a national day"

Yet all of the voices seem broadly in favour - that isn't a range of voices, is it - where are the people whose view is effectively "with respect, this is a really shit idea".

[Nearly Sane]

I note also that the BBC article is headed:

"Here, a range of voices share their thoughts about whether there is a need for a national day"

Yet all of the voices seem broadly in favour - that isn't a range of voices, is it - where are the people whose view is effectively "with respect, this is a really shit idea".

I think that's pretty much what Mona Siddiqui is saying

[ProfessorDavey]

I think that's pretty much what Mona Siddiqui is saying

Not really - she may be the least gushing about the idea, but she is hardly negative is she. Her opening comment is clearly positive:

"I think the intention of Celebration Day is good."

[Nearly Sane]

Not really - she may be the least gushing about the idea, but she is hardly negative is she. Her opening comment is clearly positive:

"I think the intention of Celebration Day is good."

About the intention. Do you think that those who are proposing it have bad intent?

[ProfessorDavey]

About the intention. Do you think that those who are proposing it have bad intent?

But that's not what she said.

She didn't say - "The intention of the people proposing this is good" (in other words focussing intent on the people). Nope she said - "I think the intention of Celebration Day is good"[/i] (in other words focussing intent on the event itself).

[Nearly Sane]

But that's not what she said.

She didn't say - "The intention of the people proposing this is good" (in other words focussing intent on the people). Nope she said - "I think the intention of Celebration Day is good"[/i] (in other words focussing intent on the event itself).

I think that's the equivalent. The day itself doesn't have intent. The people proposing it do.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think that's the equivalent. The day itself doesn't have intent. The people proposing it do.

I disagree - she is talking about the proposal itself, which she feels is good in intention. She is completely silent on the intent of those proposing it. The two are not the same things at all - you can think individuals are well intentioned but what they are proposing is shit - i.e. poor in intention. You can also think that people proposing something have poor intention, but what they are actually proposing is a good idea - i.e. good in intention.

Do you not accept that people may have good ideas but through bad intentions or that they may have bad ideas despite being well intentioned.

[Nearly Sane]

I disagree - she is talking about the proposal itself, which she feels is good in intention. She is completely silent on the intent of those proposing it. The two are not the same things at all - you can think individuals are well intentioned but what they are proposing is shit - i.e. poor in intention. You can also think that people proposing something have poor intention, but what they are actually proposing is a good idea - i.e. good in intention.

Do you not accept that people may have good ideas but through bad intentions or that they may have bad ideas despite being well intentioned.

The proposal doesn't have intentions any more than the day does. The intentions are of the people proposing it.

She then goes on to effectively say that it is a bad idea.

[ProfessorDavey]

The proposal doesn't have intentions any more than the day does. The intentions are of the people proposing it.

Yawn - we are back onto your non-sense notion that organisations cannot have organisational ethos that may be distinct from the views of the people working within that organisation.

She never mentions the people proposing the day, (and indeed I don't think the article even indicates who the proposers are) so it is reasonable to conclude that her views about intention are about the proposal itself, not about the people proposing the idea.

[Nearly Sane]

Yawn - we are back onto your non-sense notion that organisations cannot have organisational ethos that may be distinct from the views of the people working within that organisation.

She never mentions the people proposing the day, (and indeed I don't think the article even indicates who the proposers are) so it is reasonable to conclude that her views about intention are about the proposal itself, not about the people proposing the idea.

Proposals have an organisational ethos?

[ProfessorDavey]

Proposals have an organisational ethos?

Proposals may have intent, which is the equivalent of an organisation having an ethos. In both cases the intent/ethos may or may not align with the intention/views of the individuals.

So to give an example - a proposal may have intent which may or may not align with the intention of the proposer.

So let's imagine a hypothetical situation where the world is struck by a pandemic and suddenly PPE becomes in short supply. Someone (let's suggest a peer of the realm) proposes to supply loads of PPE - the intention of the proposal is to meet the shortfall of PPE and help healthcare professionals to save lives. That would be a good intent. However the proposer (let's suggest a peer of the realm) might only be interested in making shed loads of money and not give a sh*t about helping save people's lives - their intention is to get rich and to profiteer from the situation. Their intention is poor.

Now if the PPE doesn't work then the intent of the proposal and the intention of proposer are both poor. If the PPE works but the proposer is only interested in making money then you may argue that the intent of the proposal is good but the intention of proposer is poor. But you might have an alternative where the PPE doesn't work but the proposer's intention was all about helping in the pandemic rather than making any money - in this case the intent of the proposal is poor even though the intention of the proposer was honourable.