Author Topic: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'  (Read 4238 times)

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« on: October 01, 2015, 06:06:55 AM »
Hi everyone,

This is about the polygamist sect (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) or FLDS for short....and its 'seed bearers'.  Only seed bearers should have sex with all the FLDS women, I understand. 

http://us.cnn.com/2015/09/30/us/polygamist-flds-warren-jeffs-update/index.html

******************************************************************************

Warren Jeffs leads a polygamist sect known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It gained worldwide attention in 2006 when authorities accused Jeffs of sexual offenses against girls he took as wives.

In 2008, authorities raided the church's sprawling Texas ranch. Police removed more than 460 children from the property, including mothers under 18 years old. Authorities seized and shut down the ranch last year.

The FLDS broke away from the mainstream Mormon church more than a century ago because its members refused to renounce polygamy.

The church allegedly exercises control over the adjacent towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah -- an area informally known as Short Creek. Other enclaves exist in Mancos, Colorado; Boise City, Oklahoma; Custer County, South Dakota; and a Canadian community known as Bountiful, British Columbia.

Although day-to-day leadership of the church is run mostly by Jeff's brother, Lyle Jeffs, Warren Jeffs actively directs church matters from prison, said Sam Brower, a private investigator ...

....Lyle Jeffs' estranged wife Charlene Jeffs describes a group of followers called "seed bearers." "A seed bearer is an elect man of a worthy bloodline chosen by the Priesthood to impregnate the FLDS woman," according to Charlene Jeffs' petition. Under a new doctrine, "FLDS men are no longer permitted to have children with their multiple wives. That privilege belongs to the seed bearer alone," the petition said. "It is the husband's responsibility to hold the hands of their wives while the seed bearer 'spreads his seed.' In layman terms, the husband is required to sit in the room while the chosen seed bearer, or a couple of them, rape his wife or wives," according to the document.

Brower said he was able to confirm similar reports of "seed bearers" through his own sources. "It's ritualistic procreation," Brower said, "performed on a ritualistic bed-slash-altar." As part of this new system, Warren Jeffs has withheld any relationships between husbands and wives, Brower said. Any touching between spouses outside rituals like these, even a simple handshake, can now be considered adultery in the church.

... members were instructed to pray for God to free Jeffs, whom they call "the Prophet."

"We were told to pray for our Prophet's deliverance," said Wyler, age 38. "It meant the Lord would deliver him however he'd be delivered. Even if somebody was commanded to go get him out."

The governments and marshals of Hildale and Colorado City have been "deployed to carry out the will and dictates of FLDS leaders, particularly Warren Jeffs and the officials to whom he delegates authority," the Justice complaint said.

Town marshals committed various offenses, including "returning at least one underage bride to a home from which she had fled," according to the complaint. They failed to investigate crimes against non-FLDS members and refused to arrest FLDS individuals who committed crimes against nonmembers, the complaint said.

Children who were put to work included at least 125 who were younger than 12, at least 50 between ages 12 and 13, and at least 25 between 14 and 15, according to the suit. All performed tasks during school hours such as mowing, pruning and bagging pecans, the suit said.

Brower said, "it's about sex, money and power. And that's what drives them. But they also convince themselves ... that there's some meaning to their madness."

"There's always going to be people that believe in it," he said. "No matter what evidence is presented to them."

*******************************************************************************

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 08:21:20 AM by Sriram »

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 08:52:21 AM »
Yeah, these crazy people and their crazy religious beliefs. It's not like they do anything rational like ritually remove parts of the penis or anything...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 08:54:29 AM »
And who does that, then???
Not Sriram as he's, I presume, Hindu. Muslims do it though ?!!?!? Naughty people !!! ;) ;D

Nick

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »
And who does that, then???
Not Sriram as he's, I presume, Hindu. Muslims do it though ?!!?!? Naughty people !!! ;) ;D

Nick

The point is that all religions have crazy elements, and the more extreme elements of some religions have some outright damaging, dangerous elements. Highlighting one excessive group of one particularly hardline sect of one particular cult of one of the Abrahamic faiths doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know already: religion seems to offer some people license to do things that wouldn't be acceptable under rational investigation.

Unfortunately, the circumstances often get whitewashed, and there are equally those that will sling mud at this irrationality and get it to stick to the idea of, say, polygamy, which isn't intrinsically bad, though like anything else it can be abused.

If I'd pitched it as, say, an implication of Hinduism's perpetuation of the Caste system, that might have come across as a personal attack, which wasn't my intention. I could as equally have picked this morning's reports on the widespread abuse of school admissions policies by faith schools of all stripes, but I went for something a little more emotive.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 09:52:54 AM »

The point is that all religions have crazy elements, and the more extreme elements of some religions have some outright damaging, dangerous elements. Highlighting one excessive group of one particularly hardline sect of one particular cult of one of the Abrahamic faiths doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know already: religion seems to offer some people license to do things that wouldn't be acceptable under rational investigation.


O.


Rational investigation doesn't tell you what is accepatble as that would be deriving an ought from an is.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 10:04:52 AM »
Anything can be used to abuse once people are in a position of power. It happens in paganism, especially given the inclination of some prominent Wiccans towards nudity and free love.

But it happens in sports clubs, schools, universities and the workplace...

The place most people suffer abuse though, especially children and young people, is within the family circle, in their own home. Shall we ban parenting since we know most children are murdered by their parents or step parents?

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 10:54:55 AM »

The point is that all religions have crazy elements, and the more extreme elements of some religions have some outright damaging, dangerous elements. Highlighting one excessive group of one particularly hardline sect of one particular cult of one of the Abrahamic faiths doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know already: religion seems to offer some people license to do things that wouldn't be acceptable under rational investigation.


O.


Rational investigation doesn't tell you what is accepatble as that would be deriving an ought from an is.

Whereas reading an old book that justifies homophobia, misogyny and slavery does?

Rational investigation can tell you what harms people, on balance, what helps people, on balance, and what doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

Rational people then say, 'we should probably do less of the harmful stuff, more of the helpful stuff, and just let people do what they want for the rest of it'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 11:12:41 AM »
You're assuming that people brought up in an abusive, fundamentalist environment are capable of rationality.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 12:07:22 PM »
Yes, actually I don't think it is a question of "rationality" at all - these people may be behaving perfectly rationally , ie logically, within their view of the world.

It's probably more to do with how they feel about their identity, position and role in the world. The only sense in which this can be "rational" is to discuss and agree with other people. If everyone in a group is seeing using the same "view" they can all agree on values which make no sense to anyone with a different "gestalt".
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 12:21:30 PM »
I've been in an abusive relationship and I know that someone who is skilled at manipulation and control can rob you of the capability to think reasonably. If a whole group has been controlled, abused and manipulated I should think breaking free from that dysfunction virtually impossible.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 12:27:22 PM »

The point is that all religions have crazy elements, and the more extreme elements of some religions have some outright damaging, dangerous elements. Highlighting one excessive group of one particularly hardline sect of one particular cult of one of the Abrahamic faiths doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know already: religion seems to offer some people license to do things that wouldn't be acceptable under rational investigation.


O.


Rational investigation doesn't tell you what is accepatble as that would be deriving an ought from an is.

Whereas reading an old book that justifies homophobia, misogyny and slavery does?

Rational investigation can tell you what harms people, on balance, what helps people, on balance, and what doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

Rational people then say, 'we should probably do less of the harmful stuff, more of the helpful stuff, and just let people do what they want for the rest of it'.

O.

Why the strawman about old books?

Rationality tells you nothing about shoulds. If you have values it will help to work out how you act in accordance with them but it doesn't generate them. 

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 05:30:17 AM »


Some time back I had started a thread about  suicides by hundreds of school children in Japan every year... and the response by people here was rather muted. The response to this thread is similar.  Rather a matter of fact...oh hum...response!

Quite clearly many people here are programmed to respond very differently to organised rapes and child abuse in what they perceive as 'developed' countries... as compared to the same incidents in traditional societies such as Hindu and Muslim societies!!
 



Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11079
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 07:58:08 AM »
Quote
Quite clearly many people here are programmed to respond very differently to organised rapes and child abuse in what they perceive as 'developed' countries... as compared to the same incidents in traditional societies such as Hindu and Muslim societies!!
 

Are they?

You have proof for this extraordinary assertion?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 08:45:06 AM »


Some time back I had started a thread about  suicides by hundreds of school children in Japan every year... and the response by people here was rather muted. The response to this thread is similar.  Rather a matter of fact...oh hum...response!

Quite clearly many people here are programmed to respond very differently to organised rapes and child abuse in what they perceive as 'developed' countries... as compared to the same incidents in traditional societies such as Hindu and Muslim societies!!

What do you expect us to say?

My first reaction to this story was that a "religion" was being used as a pretext for humans to behave like ungulates: herded females with only one male serving them.

It is arguable whether the USA is a "developed country". It is economically a first world country, but considerable sections of it appear to behave like a third world pathological theocracy.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 08:59:05 AM »
Quote
What do you expect us to say?

If hundreds of school children committed suicide every year in India (or Iran say) or if systematic child abuse and organised rape of other peoples wives by 'seed bearers',  happened in India (or Saudi say).....what would be your reaction?! Show the same reaction.  That's what I expect.

Such things happening in secular and developed countries does not make them any less horrific than if they happened in Hindu or Muslim countries. 

Your atheistic mindset should not lead you to condemn only religious societies and not secular ones.

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 09:54:00 AM »
You do not know what my reaction is.
You make assumptions based on only fragments of my observable behaviour.

You have - as is your practice - presented an article you have harvested from the internet. You present it without any comment or interpretation of your own. You then reserve the right to castigate anyone who does not reply with the response which you think appropriate. You should reconsider this approach.

Suicide is always going to be a difficult subject to consider. It has two aspects - the unhappiness which drives someone to conceive that the only solution is to kill oneself, and the almost impossible task of those close to the person having to cope with the act and its consequences.

That schoolchildren should kill themselves is extremely distressing. But it happens and it happens everywhere. Schoolchildren kill themselves in Britain. They kill themselves in Germany, in France, in America. And they kill themselves in Japan, where bullying seems to be an important influence. I wish they didn't.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/01/asia/japan-teen-suicides/

And do you know what? They kill themselves in India, too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/12/world/asia/india-young-people-suicides/index.html

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Polygamist sect and 'seed bearers'
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 01:07:07 PM »
Quite agree HH. There's a lot of "bad stuff", if we know the causes it's only sensible to clamp down on them.

Alternatively we could just riot and hang a lot of people who have nothing to do with it.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now