Author Topic: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!  (Read 14967 times)

Brownie

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2015, 10:28:44 PM »
I'm sure the Pope is embarrassed at the publicity surrounding the shrinking of this person's tumour, he was probably only trying to give a bit of comfort and do the Popey thing along with it.  He won't do that again in a hurry.

We all know that tumours often shrivel up and disappear.  They aren't all cancerous growths.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2015, 10:37:01 PM »
However, I think that you will find that with the reducing numbers of people claiming allegiance to a religious belief, this group of people (nominal believers) are getting less as well.  In fact, I'd suggest that the main reason for the drop in allegiance numbers is because increasingly those nominal believers are no longer claiming that allegiance.
But it isn't just the nominal allegiance brigade who are declining in numbers, it is also those who see religion as important to them and also are actively involved in religion. Certainly this is the case for the UK, and indeed for most developed countries where there is freedom of religion.

So the notion that religion is in robust health, just that the 'census' christian-types are less likely to tick the box, is not credible and not backed up by evidence.

Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2015, 09:42:04 AM »
But it isn't just the nominal allegiance brigade who are declining in numbers, it is also those who see religion as important to them and also are actively involved in religion. Certainly this is the case for the UK, and indeed for most developed countries where there is freedom of religion.

So the notion that religion is in robust health, just that the 'census' christian-types are less likely to tick the box, is not credible and not backed up by evidence.
The problem with this argument is that no-one really knows what the core numbers, as opposed to the nominal numbers, were say 50 years ago.  What we do know is that, in the early 20th century, our 'Christian nation' had a pretty low level of church attendance (see the records for the 1904 Revival in Wales, for instance - one book I read some years ago suggested an attendance rate of 1 in 10 was 'good'.  (I'll try to find it again - if its still in the library at church).  The numbers actively involved in religion don't always correlate with those attending places of worship, at both extremes.  For instance, by the end of the 70s, the number of Christians in Nepal was in the region of 5000, with about half of these living in remote villages and with no other Christians in the village.  This meant that they were Christians who were not attending a place of worship as we understand the term. 

Similarly, if we look at UK churches of the same era, many would have said that perhaps half their attendees were there because their families had been attending for generations and it was socially acceptable for them to do so.  We now have the interesting anomaly that some parents attend church purely to establish their credentials prior to getting their chlid(ren) into a faith school, because of the high reputation of such schools.  It is no different, really, to parents who seek to have an address in the catchment area of a high reputation state school (primary especially) only then to 'move out of' (if they ever really moved into)  the area once they have acheived the aim of getting their child into that school.

The other thing is that attendance doesn't necessarily equate to allegiance to a faith.  At the church we attend, I would suggest that 5-10% of the regular Sunday attendees (~350) are those who are looking at the faith and seeing whether it has anything for them.  There is also approaching a 15% group of the membership who never attend church, because they are housebound and without any means of getting to the church or who work away from the locality temporarily. (By the way, having been on the church leadership until last April - these are rounded figures that we were given about a year ago)
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floo

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2015, 11:38:19 AM »
Revivals soon fade and die. Look how many Welsh chapels are used for other purposes now, many have been converted into homes.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:14:18 PM by Floo »

ippy

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2015, 11:55:57 AM »
The problem with this argument is that no-one really knows what the core numbers, as opposed to the nominal numbers, were say 50 years ago.  What we do know is that, in the early 20th century, our 'Christian nation' had a pretty low level of church attendance (see the records for the 1904 Revival in Wales, for instance - one book I read some years ago suggested an attendance rate of 1 in 10 was 'good'.  (I'll try to find it again - if its still in the library at church).  The numbers actively involved in religion don't always correlate with those attending places of worship, at both extremes.  For instance, by the end of the 70s, the number of Christians in Nepal was in the region of 5000, with about half of these living in remote villages and with no other Christians in the village.  This meant that they were Christians who were not attending a place of worship as we understand the term. 

Similarly, if we look at UK churches of the same era, many would have said that perhaps half their attendees were there because their families had been attending for generations and it was socially acceptable for them to do so.  We now have the interesting anomaly that some parents attend church purely to establish their credentials prior to getting their chlid(ren) into a faith school, because of the high reputation of such schools.  It is no different, really, to parents who seek to have an address in the catchment area of a high reputation state school (primary especially) only then to 'move out of' (if they ever really moved into)  the area once they have acheived the aim of getting their child into that school.

The other thing is that attendance doesn't necessarily equate to allegiance to a faith.  At the church we attend, I would suggest that 5-10% of the regular Sunday attendees (~350) are those who are looking at the faith and seeing whether it has anything for them.  There is also approaching a 15% group of the membership who never attend church, because they are housebound and without any means of getting to the church or who work away from the locality temporarily. (By the way, having been on the church leadership until last April - these are rounded figures that we were given about a year ago)

So in other words there's a lot fewer of you religiosos now days, why not say it Hope? No need to nibble around the edges.

ippy

Shaker

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2015, 12:00:21 PM »
You know ippy, I was just thinking the same thing - that's a lot of words to waste instead of just saying "Yeah ... people generally just don't believe this stuff any more."
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Brownie

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2015, 02:03:53 PM »
I couldn't get into the video in the op.
However I did look this up, it appears that the parents of the baby girl with the tumour believe that the Pope's kiss facilitated some type of miracle.  The Pope certainly hasn't made any claims and is probably embarrassed by the suggestion.

People with seriously ill children often clutch at straws and take comfort from all sorts, we can't judge them, it's very, very sad;  at the same time we really shouldn't make it sound as though the Church has made official claims. 

I do wonder how the little girl is now, if she is progressing well and what medical treatment she has had which might have affected the size of the tumour.  We may never hear any more about her.
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