I Am Not of This World (John 18:36)

[Outrider]

Aye! If you accept the testimony of the Church, as with anything, you have to come to your own conclusion as to why first.

Surely it would be more intellectually honest - honest is unfair, more intellectually rigourous - to decide your methodology and then see where it leads rather than deciding your conclusion and then selecting a thought-process that leads to it?

O.

edited to replace 'intellectually honest' with the less judgmental 'intellectually rigourous'.

[ad_orientem]

Surely it would be more intellectually honest - honest is unfair, more intellectually rigourous - to decide your methodology and then see where it leads rather than deciding your conclusion and then selecting a thought-process that leads to it?

O.

edited to replace 'intellectually honest' with the less judgmental 'intellectually rigourous'.

Note the last word of my post. Having come to faith in Christ one then has to decide where (if anywhere) the truth lies. I have given my methodology many times: finding the golden thread which leads all the way back to the Apostles, a visible continuity of faith and practice amongst the saints.

[NicholasMarks]

Dear Nicholas,

Heaven as a planet, bit tame for you old son, not saying you are wrong, just that it seems so old school, sure I have heard this argument before somewhere, but doesn't get my grey cells turning like you usually do.

Nevermind, still great to have you back

Gonnagle.

Sorry about that Gonnagle...I must try harder.

Its a simple matter of reverse engineering though. If we are made in the image of those who created us and we are so ideally suited to our environment then those who resurrected this planet must have been similarly suited to their own environment too.

It is a question of unifying all science and even though Almighty God harnessed this wonderful energy in an indisputable and magnificent way he and those on his planet also went through great tribulations and God's science saved them and we must read the Holy Bible knowing that, like Jesus Christ, Almighty God and those who now worship him have also been in receipt of some appalling terrorism.

This should add to our faith.

[Hope]

It doesn't get any better Hope.

ippy

I'm glad you accept that of yourself.

[Shaker]

It might be.  How would you know?

That's the point - it's impossible to know. It's pretty easy however to determine that from an exceedingly small corpus of writings (four not very lengthy ancient documents) featuring what is really very little reportage (and precisely zero direct personal statements) people cherry-pick bits here and bits there to create the Jesus they think ought to have existed (or as they would say, exist).

[NicholasMarks]

That's the point - it's impossible to know. It's pretty easy however to determine that from an exceedingly small corpus of writings (four not very lengthy ancient documents) featuring what is really very little reportage (and precisely zero direct personal statements) people cherry-pick bits here and bits there to create the Jesus they think ought to have existed (or as they would say, exist).

Those, four not very lengthy ancient documents have captured the minds of so many people that we have to be very cautious about dismissing them as invalid. One point of validity is that they have a scientific understanding...Why do so many people want to shape their lives according to these books?...Why do they sit at the end of a collection of books that foretell that these four books will be written?...Why does a man teach opposing laws to what is accepted by an oppressed society, knowing he will be slain?

Well it would appear that oppressors want to steal that vital righteous energy that Jesus tells us about, so that the target group feel oppressed...void of self esteem...expectant of the vilest atrocities that the oppressors wildly hand out...making them tired, exhausted and without hope.

Now, Jesus Christ knows all about this and has shown us how to deal with it...upbuild the very force that is being stolen from us...the very force that cripples our health and our integrity...but we must do it the tried and tested way...the way that also offers resurrection and, we are told, will repair our health to the point of everlasting life.

[Gonnagle]

Dear World,

Those, four not very lengthy ancient documents have captured the minds of so many people that we have to be very cautious about dismissing them as invalid.

the NicholasMarks I know and enjoy.

You cannot dismiss the Gospels, this forum is testament to this.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Note the last word of my post. Having come to faith in Christ one then has to decide where (if anywhere) the truth lies. I have given my methodology many times: finding the golden thread which leads all the way back to the Apostles, a visible continuity of faith and practice amongst the saints.

Which is partly my point, and entirely why I changed out the word 'honesty'. I understand your motivation, but do you accept that looking for confirmation for your preconception undermines your findings for anyone who doesn't already have your preconceptions?

O.

[Outrider]

Those, four not very lengthy ancient documents have captured the minds of so many people that we have to be very cautious about dismissing them as invalid.

Have they? Or have so many different mindsets managed to capture them, to turn them to meaning after meaning after meaning given the vagueness with which they're written? Have the survived not because of some crystalline truth but because of an absolute lack of any discernible definitive meaning such that they are an admirable template for any position that chooses to pick them up and run with them.

One point of validity is that they have a scientific understanding...

And as thought to make my point... There is no science in these works, they are not scientific, they - like you - show no grasp of the scientific method or data driven deduction.

Why do so many people want to shape their lives according to these books?

There may well be as many different reasons as there are different people who do, or who try to. I could guess at some of the influences, and some of the would be right and some of the wrong for any given believer, some would be accepted and some refuted by any given believer.

...Why do they sit at the end of a collection of books that foretell that these four books will be written?

Because the editors weren't absolutely incompetent. Not absolutely...

...Why does a man teach opposing laws to what is accepted by an oppressed society, knowing he will be slain?

Why do you presume that because it was written so it definitively happened? I don't believe Harry Potter actually cast a Petronas Spell, but it's written...

Well it would appear that oppressors want to steal that vital righteous energy that Jesus tells us about, so that the target group feel oppressed...void of self esteem...expectant of the vilest atrocities that the oppressors wildly hand out...making them tired, exhausted and without hope.

It would appear that, for a considerable period of history, the people doing the oppressing were the ones following the book. The nations with the least incidence of hopelessness are those where the fewest people follow these old books - yours and the others like it.

Now, Jesus Christ knows all about this and has shown us how to deal with it...upbuild the very force that is being stolen from us...the very force that cripples our health and our integrity...but we must do it the tried and tested way...the way that also offers resurrection and, we are told, will repair our health to the point of everlasting life.

By invoking secular government, humanistic socialist policies and forgoing all the 'magic-man' malarkey? Ironically, of course - and I'm sure the inestimable and deceptively wise Mr Gonnagle will be along to remind me in a minute - much of that secular governance and humanistic socialism is right up Jesus' street, it doesn't need parlour tricks like 'Dynamic Energy', it just needs people to behave decently and grow up to make this world a better place and we won't feel so downheartened about life that we want another run at it later.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider:

Though I am quite certain you will have a quick answer slamming any valid point made I would like to point out that a topic that inspires many, many people, over many, many generations, must have a scientific reason to explain it, and the only justifiable answer is that Jesus was fully aware of the science he was igniting. A science that many tyrants and many pagan priests have thought a good idea to harness for its power to bring masses of people together in good spirit which they have then been able to manipulate...but it will be to their own downfall because performing iniquity will be the first to fail in God's Judgement...if they haven't already.

The atheist will probably be high on the list too because their hostility will be too destructive in a new righteous heavens and a new Earth.

 

[floo]

Outrider:

Though I am quite certain you will have a quick answer slamming any valid point made I would like to point out that a topic that inspires many, many people, over many, many generations, must have a scientific reason to explain it, and the only justifiable answer is that Jesus was fully aware of the science he was igniting. A science that many tyrants and many pagan priests have thought a good idea to harness for its power to bring masses of people together in good spirit which they have then been able to manipulate...but it will be to their own downfall because performing iniquity will be the first to fail in God's Judgement...if they haven't already.

The atheist will probably be high on the list too because their hostility will be too destructive in a new righteous heavens and a new Earth.

NM that doesn't follow at all!

[Outrider]

Though I am quite certain you will have a quick answer slamming any valid point made I would like to point out that a topic that inspires many, many people, over many, many generations, must have a scientific reason to explain it, and the only justifiable answer is that Jesus was fully aware of the science he was igniting.

No. It must have a scientific answer, yes, but that answer doesn't necessarily include the idea that the contents are actually right or the Qu'ran would be right, and the Baghavad Gita would be right, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead would be right, and the Lord of the Rings would be right.

One possible scientific explanation could be 'There's one born every minute...'

A science that many tyrants and many pagan priests have thought a good idea to harness for its power to bring masses of people together in good spirit which they have then been able to manipulate...but it will be to their own downfall because performing iniquity will be the first to fail in God's Judgement...if they haven't already.

Whereas secular social democracy doesn't lend itself to those tyrants in the first place, whilst still accomodating personal freedom and integrity - why didn't Jesus recommend that?

The atheist will probably be high on the list too because their hostility will be too destructive in a new righteous heavens and a new Earth.

That you're so fond of myths should have led to expect you to vomit forth the 'angry atheist' stereotype. Particularly poignant, this week: atheists are militant when the disagree with what you say, but religious people it seems need to blow up restaurants before they're militant. Atheists aren't 'hostile', they just don't accept one particular subset of unevidenced claims.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

NM that doesn't follow at all!

I'll explain it to you Floo though I really shouldn't have to...

Cause and Effect...If millions of people are following one man...regardless of who that man is there has to be a reason...a scientific reason...A cold,  hard reason that can be analysed and given scientific veracity even if we don't like the scientific facts. Fortunately for us, unlike many of these leaders of our minds, Jesus does it in a responsible and upbuildig way whilst many of the others have just been war-mongers who get some sort of thrill from the power and the prestige it gives them and they will use any old lie and deceit to obtain it...now understanding all this is real science...a science that Jesus Christ leads us in to.

 

[Outrider]

Cause and Effect...If millions of people are following one man...regardless of who that man is there has to be a reason...a scientific reason...A cold,  hard reason that can be analysed and given scientific veracity even if we don't like the scientific facts.

Therefore Muhammed, Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard were right... Or, on the other hand, we could deduce from the fact that different millions of people follow mutually contradictory paths that, in fact, millions of people can just be wrong.

Fortunately for us, unlike many of these leaders of our minds, Jesus does it in a responsible and upbuildig way whilst many of the others have just been war-mongers who get some sort of thrill from the power and the prestige it gives them and they will use any old lie and deceit to obtain it...now understanding all this is real science...a science that Jesus Christ leads us in to.

We can tell this because of when Jesus says "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NIV), whereas Muhammed's warmongering is apparent when he says "If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people" (5:32)

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Therefore Muhammed, Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard were right... Or, on the other hand, we could deduce from the fact that different millions of people follow mutually contradictory paths that, in fact, millions of people can just be wrong.

We can tell this because of when Jesus says "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NIV), whereas Muhammed's warmongering is apparent when he says "If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people" (5:32)

O.

That is the difference between the scientist and those with closed minds...who cannot draw breath between one attack and the next...they are never prepared to talk peace and harmony...and that will not bode well for them on Judgment Day.

 

[Outrider]

That is the difference between the scientist and those with closed minds...who cannot draw breath between one attack and the next...they are never prepared to talk peace and harmony...and that will not bode well for them on Judgment Day.

What is the difference? Cherry-picking passages to support your preconceived notions does, indeed, differentiate you from scientists.

Many, many people from many, many backgrounds are more than ready to talk peace and harmony; many, many people from many backgrounds are more than ready to send warplanes or suicide bombers to destroy that which they can depict as 'other'.

Neither atheist nor believer it seems is above this.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

What is the difference? Cherry-picking passages to support your preconceived notions does, indeed, differentiate you from scientists.

Many, many people from many, many backgrounds are more than ready to talk peace and harmony; many, many people from many backgrounds are more than ready to send warplanes or suicide bombers to destroy that which they can depict as 'other'.

Neither atheist nor believer it seems is above this.

O.

Jesus Christ, himself was above this. He could have changed his path to accommodate   oppression...he could have saved himself from crucifixion by changing his stance but he wanted you and me to know that there is more than one way of taking advantage of an impossible situation and it seems that modern science must now agree with him...and that is by tapping into Almighty God's 'free energy' and using resurrection to achieve a result from the impossible situations that war, hatred, and greed impinge upon us.

But you will have to be patient and a little less hostile if you want to understand it all.

[Outrider]

Jesus Christ, himself was above this. He could have changed his path to accommodate   oppression...he could have saved himself from crucifixion by changing his stance but he wanted you and me to know that there is more than one way of taking advantage of an impossible situation and it seems that modern science must now agree with him...

No, modern science has no basis for 'agreeing' with what is almost certainly a highly mytholigised depiction of a possibly creditable early philosopher. You suggest that he could have saved himself from crucifixion - a means of execution - yet also claim that he did - he resurrected himself - despite the absolute lack of any creditable support for either the specific incident or the likelihood that it's even possible.

and that is by tapping into Almighty God's 'free energy' and using resurrection to achieve a result from the impossible situations that war, hatred, and greed impinge upon us.

And you're back off into spouting woo. If you want to talk science, talk science. If you want to spout poetic rhetoric, feel free. If you conflate the two, though, you're going to continue looking like an idiot, which is a shame, because underneath the woo you seem to have good intentions and some creditable messages on how people should behave to make the world a better place.

O.

But you will have to be patient and a little less hostile if you want to understand it all.
[/quote]

[NicholasMarks]

No, modern science has no basis for 'agreeing' with what is almost certainly a highly mytholigised depiction of a possibly creditable early philosopher. You suggest that he could have saved himself from crucifixion - a means of execution - yet also claim that he did - he resurrected himself - despite the absolute lack of any creditable support for either the specific incident or the likelihood that it's even possible.

And you're back off into spouting woo. If you want to talk science, talk science. If you want to spout poetic rhetoric, feel free. If you conflate the two, though, you're going to continue looking like an idiot, which is a shame, because underneath the woo you seem to have good intentions and some creditable messages on how people should behave to make the world a better place.

O.

But you will have to be patient and a little less hostile if you want to understand it all.

You missed the point about God's 'free energy' Outrider...the latest buzz-word in scientific circles.

Well...they wont understand this until they understand how the atom is made and they wont get the gist of that until they have worked out how galaxies are formed or what dark matter and dark energy is. But hey...it is all there written between the lines in the Holy Bible...but if you find it difficult to comprehend may I suggest that the Gospels are a good place to start.

[BeRational]

You missed the point about God's 'free energy' Outrider...the latest buzz-word in scientific circles.

Well...they wont understand this until they understand how the atom is made and they wont get the gist of that until they have worked out how galaxies are formed or what dark matter and dark energy is. But hey...it is all there written between the lines in the Holy Bible...but if you find it difficult to comprehend may I suggest that the Gospels are a good place to start.

Then explain it in scientific detail.

I could say it's in Harry Potter

[Outrider]

You missed the point about God's 'free energy' Outrider...the latest buzz-word in scientific circles.

No, I didn't miss it, I just didn't accept that your commentary on it had any scientific validity, and woo inherently has no validity.

Well...they wont understand this until they understand how the atom is made and they wont get the gist of that until they have worked out how galaxies are formed or what dark matter and dark energy is. But hey...it is all there written between the lines in the Holy Bible...but if you find it difficult to comprehend may I suggest that the Gospels are a good place to start.

You can suggest it. Neither I, nor any of the other highly creditable scientist I know see any scientific explanations of anything in any of the scriptures: at best they are irrelevant to scientific enquiry, and at worst they make assertions that are definitively refuted by the findings of scientific enquiry.

The layout and format of the Bible is not of a scientific work - it has no explanatory mechanisms detailed, no data to support the assertions, no experimental accounts which would allow the claims to be tested and the scientific peer review has overwhelmingly rejected it as a scientific explanation of reality.

O.

[floo]

You missed the point about God's 'free energy' Outrider...the latest buzz-word in scientific circles.

Well...they wont understand this until they understand how the atom is made and they wont get the gist of that until they have worked out how galaxies are formed or what dark matter and dark energy is. But hey...it is all there written between the lines in the Holy Bible...but if you find it difficult to comprehend may I suggest that the Gospels are a good place to start.

'God's free energy'! No doubt you are referring to solar, wind and wave power! I doubt mainstream science classifies it in that way.

Between the lines in the Bible! YEH RIGHT, well I guess you can read anything you wish to read between the lines!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_free_energy

I expect an essay from you by the end of the week

Gonnagle.