Birtplace and Culture Determine Religious Beliefs

[torridon]

Including some pretty horrendous ones. Greed, corruption, selfishness, violence, xenophobia - all spring to mind.

Yes I think that is right.  Whilst we can point to ways in which many human societies are becoming more tolerant and civilised, I rather think that is mostly in the veneer; underlying human nature, be it good or bad, does not change in such short timescales as we measure civilisations in.

[Khatru]

Is that why there are more Christians in China or India than there are in somewhere like the UK?

There are more Christians in China and India simply because those two countries have the world's largest populations.

Not only are there more Christians in China and India, there are also more Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus,  policemen, doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers, etc.

What you just said doesn't change a thing and the vast majority of believers on this planet will have their faith for no other reason than they were born into their particular culture.

[Sriram]

There are more Christians in China and India simply because those two countries have the world's largest populations.

Not only are there more Christians in China and India, there are also more Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus,  policemen, doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers, etc.

What you just said doesn't change a thing and the vast majority of believers on this planet will have their faith for no other reason than they were born into their particular culture.

No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.

1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.

2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked out beforehand.  We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes those situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.

So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.

[Leonard James]

No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.

1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.

2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked our beforehand.  We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes the situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.

So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.

All the evidence available so far points to your number one understanding as correct.

There is no evidence for number two, except the wishful thinking of those who won't accept number one.

[Bubbles]

I agree wholeheartedly with the opening post.

Rose, I have often wondered about women having more than one husband at the same time, polyandry or polyamory (each well off financially of course and not all living under the same roof);  a woman could have one husband for stability, one for extravagant evenings out and occasional weekends away, and the other for....well I've forgotten, but it was something interesting.

 

As long as they all wash their own socks 

I have drawers full of men's odd socks as it is. ( that's with one hubby)

I think my washing machine eats them, or each pair has a dissolvable one.

I think it's a conspiracy by the sock manufacturers.

[Sriram]

All the evidence available so far points to your number one understanding as correct.

There is no evidence for number two, except the wishful thinking of those who won't accept number one.

Len...no it doesn't. There is plenty of evidence for number 2.

But we may not agree on what constitutes 'evidence'.....that's a problem we have to live with.   

[Khatru]

No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.

1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.

2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked out beforehand.  We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes those situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.

So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.

I fully accept that people will change their beliefs from one religion to another.  However, that remains very much the exception rather than being the rule.

As for life/destiny being predetermined.  Please feel free to provide scientifically verifiable evidence - just one piece of evidence is fine - it will be enough to destroy atheism.

[Bubbles]

I fully accept that people will change their beliefs from one religion to another.  However, that remains very much the exception rather than being the rule.

As for life/destiny being predetermined.  Please feel free to provide scientifically verifiable evidence - just one piece of evidence is fine - it will be enough to destroy atheism.

Not sure I agree with you.

For some people their religion is more fixed but for a growing number of people, they are set free from the restrictions that western religions put on them.

I think Hinduism is much freer on what you can believe so it's much easier to evolve your beliefs and make that change.

I think that's why Sriram doesn't see it as the exception to the rule.

A person  is always changing in Hinduism as its a journey, sometimes even with different stages of life and different outlooks.

I'm sure Sriram will set me right, if I'm wrong.

I suspect from a Hindu perspective, change isn't the exception to the rule, because it can absorb other wisdoms easily.

🌹
 
Also are we all not sharing certain stages of life together?

For example childhood, student/ single, marriage /children , old age

http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/p/fourstages.htm

Not quite the same, but our lives ( unless we consciously choose to do different) are predetermined up to a point. None of which will destroy atheism, but it is one small bit of evidence.

Also some of the ideas about predestination and time come out of the wonderings about how things are and science.  What is the " present" for example? And it's relationship to the past and future.

If they can enquire about multiverses etc time is not constant is it?  It's the speed of light that's the constant?!?

I wouldn't rule out your destiny just yet, not in a multiverse that has multiple yous.

 

🌹😉

[Khatru]

Not sure I agree with you.

For some people their religion is more fixed but for a growing number of people, they are set free from the restrictions that western religions put on them.

I think Hinduism is much freer on what you can believe so it's much easier to evolve your beliefs and make that change.

I think that's why Sriram doesn't see it as the exception to the rule.

A person  is always changing in Hinduism as its a journey, sometimes even with different stages of life and different outlooks.

I'm sure Sriram will set me right, if I'm wrong.

I suspect from a Hindu perspective, change isn't the exception to the rule, because it can absorb other wisdoms easily.

🌹
 
Also are we all not sharing certain stages of life together?

For example childhood, student/ single, marriage /children , old age

http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/p/fourstages.htm

Not quite the same, but our lives ( unless we consciously choose to do different) are predetermined up to a point. None of which will destroy atheism, but it is one small bit of evidence.

Also some of the ideas about predestination and time come out of the wonderings about how things are and science.  What is the " present" for example? And it's relationship to the past and future.

If they can enquire about multiverses etc time is not constant is it?  It's the speed of light that's the constant?!?

I wouldn't rule out your destiny just yet, not in a multiverse that has multiple yous.

 

🌹😉

I think that here in the west we've reached a tipping point where people being born into a religious household are in the minority.  The prevailing non-believing secularism is what makes us magnificently godless.  So much so that people born in Western and Northern Europe are far more likely to be free from superstition and mumbo jumbo.

That pretty much holds with my original point in that people adopt the faith (or in this case, non-faith) of the parents/culture they're born into.

Not sure about the whole cosmology thing.  That's one for the cosmologists, astro and quantum physicists. 

Having said that, I'll still take science over religion.   Science can be worked out and questions are welcomed.  It's about evidence and a sound methodology - a transparent process where people can see tangible results and the working out behind it -  you don't have to "accept it on faith"

Contrast that with religion which is based on emotional appeal, authority, fear, etc.  It's all based on "accepting it on faith" and as for seeing the working out behind it - well, you can't do that because there  isn't any.

Returning to cosmology...we've all heard of Dark Matter/Dark Energy:

We don't know what they are, perhaps the study of recently discovered gravitational ripples will provide answers.  So, at this point in time they remain provisional hypotheses used to explain observed phenomena.

Because this is science, nobody is required to believe them on pain of eternal torture.  What's more, if someone comes up with a better hypothesis which has been based on further observations, Dark matter/Dark Energy may get kicked into touch.

When does anything analogous ever happen in religion?

[Sriram]

Khatru,

What you say is true of only the Abrahamic religions.....not religions in general. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are not as rigid as these religions (as Rose mentions).  There is considerable room for lateral thinking and personal choice. Many philosophies in these religions are actually atheistic.

Samkhya is atheistic. So are Jainism and Buddhism. Even Vedanta and Yoga do not talk of a personal God. All these are about personal development.

I have mentioned many times about different paths that we can choose to follow. 

Maybe that's why many people in the west have chosen to follow Indian religions in recent years/decades....or  developed western equivalents to these religions/philosophies. 

And these Indian religions are not mutually exclusive with science.  There is nothing in them that conflicts with science and its discoveries. They are not about God or the supernatural.

They just attempt to explain different aspects of the human personality and try to shift focus from the external material world... to the inner consciousness.

Lot of importance is given to the mind and Consciousness and they are not treated as just byproducts of the brain. That is essentially the difference between Indian philosophies/religions and material philosophies (science)....nothing more.

[Jack Knave]

For the weak this is true but for the few strong that arise they can usually break free. Lesser mortals just modify what they find to the best of their ability and hope it won't offend.

[Khatru]

Khatru,

What you say is true of only the Abrahamic religions.....not religions in general. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are not as rigid as these religions (as Rose mentions).  There is considerable room for lateral thinking and personal choice. Many philosophies in these religions are actually atheistic.

Samkhya is atheistic. So are Jainism and Buddhism. Even Vedanta and Yoga do not talk of a personal God. All these are about personal development.

I have mentioned many times about different paths that we can choose to follow. 

Maybe that's why many people in the west have chosen to follow Indian religions in recent years/decades....or  developed western equivalents to these religions/philosophies. 

And these Indian religions are not mutually exclusive with science.  There is nothing in them that conflicts with science and its discoveries. They are not about God or the supernatural.

They just attempt to explain different aspects of the human personality and try to shift focus from the external material world... to the inner consciousness.

Lot of importance is given to the mind and Consciousness and they are not treated as just byproducts of the brain. That is essentially the difference between Indian philosophies/religions and material philosophies (science)....nothing more.

Fair enough, there's more to religion than the Abrahamic myths and superstition.

Not that I'm about to become a Sikh - after all, I know little of the Asian myths but I do find their belief systems far more preferable to Judaism/Christianity/Islam.

[Sriram]

Fair enough, there's more to religion than the Abrahamic myths and superstition.

Not that I'm about to become a Sikh - after all, I know little of the Asian myths but I do find their belief systems far more preferable to Judaism/Christianity/Islam.

There are hundreds of myths and stories in Hinduism. But most of us treat them as moral lessons and not as literally true stories.  The philosophy that's at the base of Hinduism and other Indian religions is the guide.