Author Topic: The Dignity of Marriage  (Read 6102 times)

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 02:11:28 PM »
Sass

The historical purpose of marriage has little to do with sex - as such.

The purpose of marriage was to restrict and control the transfer of property, to control inheritance. Hence, the first duty of a wife was to produce an heir so that property could be kept within the "bloodline" the easiest way to do this was to control the sexual opportunities available to the wife. Two men together or two women together could not produce an heir.

The nasty hand of religion only came into marriage at a rather late stage when it was used to effect social control. Credulous people (and there are still some around) could be frightened into submission by being told they were offending the King of the Fairies in the Sky.

What other people choose to do with contents of their underwear should be of no interest to anyone else. And if two people want to celebrate their affective relationship by making a public declaration of this relationship then why should anyone else, including the King of the Fairies, be in the least bit bothered?

The King of the Fairies?

Isn't that what people used to call gay people once? Fairies?

 ;D

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 03:19:40 PM »

If two people want to get married in the House of God, then yes it is the business of his believers as to who those two people are.

No it isn't! His believers may think that, but it is just their opinion, warped by what they have read. If he is truly a God of love then he won't deny the covenant of love between two people, no matter what their sex is.

Humph Warden Bennett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5013
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 04:54:26 PM »
No it isn't! His believers may think that, but it is just their opinion, warped by what they have read. If he is truly a God of love then he won't deny the covenant of love between two people, no matter what their sex is.

So you would force SSM into those places whose members do not want it?

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 05:36:24 PM »
People have to examine their reasons for not wanting it, Humph.  Something they are doing and have been doing for many years, the latter having resulted in all the changes in attitude and law in recent years.
I don't like the idea of forcing clergy to perform any ceremony that goes against their conscience but those who feel that way are becoming fewer in number and will eventually disappear altogether as younger people move up.

At the moment there are plenty of clergy who will perform same sex marriage, sometimes in church and sometimes at another venue.  Even the hierarchies of the big, established churches are divided on this and there is a general 'softening' of attitude so I am confident that in time church rules will change.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 06:12:25 PM »
As far as I'm aware when a cleric conducts a marriage they are performing two roles: the religious one, obviously, and the civil/legal element on the same basis as a registrar conducting a civil (non-religious) marriage.

Aside from the shameful ring-fencing of the C of E under SSM legislation in England & Wales I'd have thought that religious organisations declining to conduct SSM to those who meet the legal requirements to marry might consider opting out of the civil element altogether (since they can't discriminate if they aren't providing the civil element to anyone) and restrict themselves to doing a post-civil religious ceremony - else they provide the civil element without discrimination.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2016, 06:32:54 PM »
In England the last I knew only CofE clergy could also act as registrars. Has that changed?

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 06:40:37 PM »
In England the last I knew only CofE clergy could also act as registrars. Has that changed?

Don't know, but I'd imagine RCC priests can do both the religious and civil.

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 06:50:58 PM »
Yes they can - and they can perform a civil and religious service somewhere other than church (as long as the place is licensed for marriages or a special licence is obtained), as can Anglicans.  Most church ministers are licensed to perform a civil marriage in this country, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical Free, etc.

The only time I have known of a church being unable to, was one that was fairly new and occupied a school building at weekends; they didn't have a licence so the people I knew of went to the registrar first and then had a marriage ceremony in their church.  Later on the church bought their own premises and had a licence for marriages and their clergy were licensed to perform them.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 07:14:49 PM by Brownie »
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 06:56:26 PM »
So you would force SSM into those places whose members do not want it?

I would expect everybody to obey anti-discrimination laws, or suffer the consequences.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2016, 07:15:46 PM »
Yes they can - and they can perform a civil and religious service somewhere other than church (as long as the place is licensed for marriages or a special licence is obtained), as can Anglicans.  Most church ministers are licensed to perform a civil marriage in this country, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical Free, etc.

The only time I have known of a church being unable to, was one that was fairly new and occupied a school building at weekends; they didn't have a licence so the people I knew of went to the registrar first and then had a marriage ceremony in their church.  Later on the church bought their own premises and had a licence for marriages and their clergy were licensed to perform them.

That's interesting. The last RCC wedding I attended had to have a registrar present for the legal bit.

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2016, 07:20:30 PM »
I've never seen that, Rhiannon, but obviously it happens sometimes.  I wonder why the priest wasn't licensed to marry people?  We'll never know.  Perhaps he'd lost it  :D.

Not a bad thing actually, in many other countries, eg France and Germany, the legal and religious aspects are kept quite separate, everyone goes to the registrar for the legal bit and then to church if they want to.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Étienne d'Angleterre

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2016, 07:40:07 PM »
I've never seen that, Rhiannon, but obviously it happens sometimes.  I wonder why the priest wasn't licensed to marry people?  We'll never know.  Perhaps he'd lost it  :D.

Not a bad thing actually, in many other countries, eg France and Germany, the legal and religious aspects are kept quite separate, everyone goes to the registrar for the legal bit and then to church if they want to.

It can depend on the venue as well. I have attended a Methodist wedding in a chapel where no services had taken place for ages. They had a minister and an official registrar. Maybe they had not renewed a license or something?

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2016, 07:43:07 PM »
Not a bad thing actually, in many other countries, eg France and Germany, the legal and religious aspects are kept quite separate, everyone goes to the registrar for the legal bit and then to church if they want to.

That would work for the civil/legal aspects so that marriage in the legal sense is secular, and since the religious add-on (however important this is for some on a personal basis) doesn't impact at all on the civil/legal element so that there is no discrimination on that score.

There would still be the issue of whether religious organisations would be inclined to discriminate against religious gay people by denying them access to the religious add-on. 

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2016, 07:50:15 PM »
It's likely that some would, as they do here.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2016, 12:27:31 PM »
As far as I'm aware when a cleric conducts a marriage they are performing two roles: the religious one, obviously, and the civil/legal element on the same basis as a registrar conducting a civil (non-religious) marriage.

Aside from the shameful ring-fencing of the C of E under SSM legislation in England & Wales I'd have thought that religious organisations declining to conduct SSM to those who meet the legal requirements to marry might consider opting out of the civil element altogether (since they can't discriminate if they aren't providing the civil element to anyone) and restrict themselves to doing a post-civil religious ceremony - else they provide the civil element without discrimination.

I think you are forgetting that vicars of the Church of England are automatically licensed to perform marriages and have a register in their Church. Other Churches like the Roman Catholic require a registrar to be present they are not automatically allowed to marry people.

In the Church the vicar has the right to say who he marries. Because he has his license due to the fact he is a vicar and for religious purposes.

The vicar believes marriage for a man and woman so religiously will only marry a man and a woman.
That is because he believes that marriage outside God and a man and a woman is not marriage.

For legal purposes two people of the same sex can marry.  But it is a legal ceremony with no definition in religious beliefs.

I am not sure why everyone cannot just accept the truth for what it is.
In Gods eyes there is no marriage outside that of a man and a woman.
In the eyes of the world anyone can legally marry now.

Are people saying they can change God and what he teaches?
That would not be honest, truthful or based in trust in God and his word.

We are being ridiculous if we think we can change everything to suit man. Adam and Eve tried it, mistrusted what God told them and look how that ended up.... HERE....
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2016, 12:31:35 PM »
In England the last I knew only CofE clergy could also act as registrars. Has that changed?

Registrars and Vicars have licenses to marry within their own legal places of work.

Both registrars but working in different offices.
Vicars having a religious right to marry others and so given a license automatically.
Registrars apply to become registrars vicars are automatically given a license to perform marriages.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2016, 12:32:34 PM »
Don't know, but I'd imagine RCC priests can do both the religious and civil.

No they cannot. Roman Catholic priests cannot marry anyone in this country they have no license and require a registrar to be present.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2016, 12:33:28 PM »
That's interesting. The last RCC wedding I attended had to have a registrar present for the legal bit.

That is because they have no license I think Brownie thinking of the Anglican Church.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2016, 12:38:01 PM »
No I wasn't.  It's just that I've not attended a Catholic wedding where a registrar was present (though I've only been to a couple), so I assumed they were all licensed like the CofE but, having looked it up, it seems that some priests apply to be licensed as registrars and others don't bother.  Not a big deal I suppose.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

floo

  • Guest
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2016, 01:33:21 PM »
I think it is only Anglican priests, like my daughter, who are licenced to marry people without a registrar present.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2016, 01:51:48 PM »
https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/religious-ceremonies

"Authorised officials, including ministers and priests of other religions, can register marriages."

But this does not include Humanists ... except in Scotland.

https://humanism.org.uk/campaigns/human-rights-and-equality/marriage-laws/
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:54:19 PM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: The Dignity of Marriage
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2016, 02:01:37 PM »
I was talking to a friend last week whose sister is a Quaker and had a Quaker wedding some thirty years ago.   In the far off days when the Friends were persecuted, their marriages were not recognised so all the Friends present at a wedding signed a document stating they had witnessed the marriage.  I don't know about the legalities of that but it was long before our time.  However, though their weddings are now recognised in law, they still do the traditional signing of a document.

My friend said that one of the Elders at his sister's wedding was licensed as a registrar so they didn't have to import a registrar or go the register office.  That was more than thirty years ago.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us