Author Topic: continued from the 1-1 thread  (Read 5722 times)

BeRational

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2016, 09:45:34 AM »
And still we wait for responses to replies 21, 22 and 23.

I think you will find these have all been answered many times in other places!
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john

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2016, 01:37:07 PM »
In reply 20 Hope said.
As a Christian, I believe that God created everything in the universe....  If God created everything it would have been for a purpose - and as a result, everything within that creation has a purpose.

Can I ask him.


For what purpose does God cause little children to die of cancer?

How can an all powerful God deny responsibility for what occurs in it's creation?

If I had the power to cure cancer but didn't because I thought people should discover their own cure, could I claim that subsequent deaths from cancer were not my fault?

nb That books tells us that Christ (god) can cure illness even bring back the dead.

So why does that little child die.

Anyone would think that failure to save that child is ample evidence for the non existence of God or maybe just evidence that he is a merciless, uncaring shit.

I just CANNOT understand why any intelligent person can persist in a God belief in the face of all we now know.   
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Hope

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2016, 10:04:31 PM »
For what purpose does God cause little children to die of cancer?

How can an all powerful God deny responsibility for what occurs in it's creation?
OK, john.  Let's answer the second comment first and take an analogy.  Peter Heinlein is thought to have created the first watch.  Over the intervening centuries, watches have been used in a number of events that have resulted in the death of men, women and children.  Are we to understand - as your post suggests - that Herr Heinlein has to bear the responsibility for these, as it is his creation that has been used?

As for your first comment, illness and potential for death is part and parcel of the process of a dynamic natural world.  Just think of the global population that we'd have if people didn't die.  Why is the death of a child particularly worse than that of an adult?  After all, no-one has a purpose in living.

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If I had the power to cure cancer but didn't because I thought people should discover their own cure, could I claim that subsequent deaths from cancer were not my fault?
Right, until 20 or 30 years ago, cancers were often associated with smoking cigarettes; it is now been associated with obesity; are either of these, things that humanity have to do/be? 

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That books tells us that Christ (god) can cure illness even bring back the dead.
Do you have any evidence that cures from illness are purely down to medical science?

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So why does that little child die.
If a human parent follows a life-style that causes their off-spring to suffer from some illness or untreatable condition (as medical science indicates can happen) where does the responsibility lie?

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Anyone would think that failure to save that child is ample evidence for the non existence of God or maybe just evidence that he is a merciless, uncaring shit.
Anyone who takes this highly unscientific understanding seriously would appear, to me, to be pretty careless.  Oddly enough, your 'ample evidence for the non existence of God' is equally balanced by the 'ample evidence for the existence of God', especially when people recover from 'untreatable' conditions which have been deemed terminal by mediacl science.

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I just CANNOT understand why any intelligent person can persist in a God belief in the face of all we now know.
john, what would that 'all we now know' be?  That medical science doesn't have all the answers, that human nature in the 21st century is very little different to human nature 2/3/5/10,000 years ago?  That humans today can be as cruel to other humans as they were X000 years ago - or conversely, as caring towards other humans as they were X000 years ago.  That 21st century CE Western society condones slavery as much as 17th century CE, 1st century CE, 1st century BCE, 10th century BCE, etc societies, and that potentially there is a much now as at any time in the past?

If one compares 21st century 'developed world' society with 21st century 'developing world' society, whilst this, that and the other aspect of the former is almost certainly better than their equivalent in the latter, there are as many aspects where the reverse is the case.
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jeremyp

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2016, 10:21:48 PM »
OK, john.  Let's answer the second comment first and take an analogy.  Peter Heinlein is thought to have created the first watch.  Over the intervening centuries, watches have been used in a number of events that have resulted in the death of men, women and children.  Are we to understand - as your post suggests - that Herr Heinlein has to bear the responsibility for these, as it is his creation that has been used?

For your analogy to work, Peter Heinlein would have to have created all watches, not just the first one. Don't forget you claimed God created everything, not just the first one of everything.

So let's say the Heinlein watch had a design feature that caused it to explode occasionally, severing the wearer's hand at the wrist. Would you not admit Herr Heinlein bore a measure of responsibility for the injuries?

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As for your first comment, illness and potential for death is part and parcel of the process of a dynamic natural world.
Yes it is but you claim God created the natural World. That would mean he designed in illness and death. It's his fault.

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torridon

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2016, 06:52:58 AM »
As for your first comment, illness and potential for death is part and parcel of the process of a dynamic natural world.

Is it not God that is architect and creator of the natural world ?

Just think of the global population that we'd have if people didn't die.

Does that mean that Heaven suffers terribly from over population ?

why does humanity seem to have had a purposefulness inbuilt into its core being?  Why have humans of all races and ages had 'purpose'?

Do newts have purpose ? How about the Zika virus ? Or is this thinking just anthropocentrism on steroids ?  It's all about us eh ?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 07:00:05 AM by torridon »

john

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2016, 10:00:31 AM »
Hope

You really do not think through this rubbish you spout do you?

With ultimate power goes total and absolute responsibility, if your God created everything and has a plan then everything that happens is its responsibility.

You cannot have it both ways.

The death of that innocent new born baby is Gods fault even if it's mother did smoke a fag whilst having a swift half once. What preposterous excuses you put forward!

What kind of thing would cause suffering and death to a new born baby to punish it's parents. How very Christian of you.

Jesus/God has the power to cure as the book and you claim.

Then why did he only cure one leper, raise one man from the dead?

If he has the power to cure one why not all? A surgeon who has power surpassing all others to cure but who refuses to use his skills on anyone but his bestest friends is not a good guy.

I do not believe for a second that there is a god let alone one with the power to cure the sick - but you do. You keep claiming so ad nauseam here. Not only is there no evidence anywhere to suggest this were so but even if there was and that healing power was only extended to gods bestest mates instead of all humanity then your god is a pretty cruel and selfish bastard you must admit, there is no other explanation.

With absolute power goes absolute responsibility.

If he has the power to cure some but chooses not to extend it to all, he is a shit not worthy of praise.   
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 10:47:27 AM by john »
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floo

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Re: continued from the 1-1 thread
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2016, 08:40:08 AM »
The excuses some make for the Biblical god are gobsmacking. I suppose it is easier than facing up to the fact that if it exists and was responsible for creation and human nature then everything that has gone wrong in the world is down to it.  An omnipotent god would have known exactly what suffering it would cause, but as I have said many times maybe that is how it gets its kicks.