Good for Desmond Tutu

[ippy]

It's pretty bleedin' obvious: Ippy has claimed that 82% of us are in favour of allowing assisted dying.

The figure comes from this story http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/press-release/poll-assisted-dying/

I think your deliberately pretending to misunderstand.
Yes, there is. Grant these people their wishes and help them to die.

Thanks for that J P, I knew I had heard or read it somewhere.

ippy

[Brownie]

Brownie, I have no thoughts about how much wealth you have or not, more of your just slightly misunderstanding?

The point is we've not got an option to take assisted dying here in the U K unless you have the financial means, to go somewhere where they do allow assisted dying and pay the fee, somewhere like Switzerland, having paid the fare to go to the Swiss clinic I think their fee is around the £6000 mark, Belgium has just passed something on this enlightened approach to assisted dying I'm not sure exactly what it is, because I only managed to hear the tail end of a report about that.

We should all have easy access assisted dying here in our own country, without such without involving such a heavy charge for doing so, (Wealthy or not).

If you have religious reasons for not taking the assisted dying option, that's fine too, don't take it, I wouldn't want to impose my point of view about assisted dying on you.

Do try to read thing through properly, we all get the wrong end of the stick from time to time, you seem to be going through a rather bad patch of misunderstandings at the mo.   

ippy

Do I ippy?  I didn't realise it was so frequent or noticeable, I've always been someone who doesn't see the obvious but I do read posts.  I'm so sorry and embarrassed, perhaps I need a short break and then come back fully charged.
Love xxx

[ippy]

Do I ippy?  I didn't realise it was so frequent or noticeable, I've always been someone who doesn't see the obvious but I do read posts.  I'm so sorry and embarrassed, perhaps I need a short break and then come back fully charged.
Love xxx

Brownie your post bears very little relation to my post and the, get away with anything smile approach has never really worked on me.

In this case, conveying similar smile like situation, only with words on paper.

ippy

[Sassy]

Doctors can administer pain relief to dying patients even if it causes the death as long as it is administered purely to ease pain. There are no postmortems for expected deaths.
They can administer whatever is needed to ease pain when dying.

[Anchorman]

Doctors can administer pain relief to dying patients even if it causes the death as long as it is administered purely to ease pain. There are no postmortems for expected deaths.
They can administer whatever is needed to ease pain when dying.

So, what about those with life limiting illness which, whilst progressive, is not terminal?
In the case of Mary - of whom I posted earlier on this thread - the normal paliative pain killers are not recommended - they clash with her existing medication.
Again, as posted earlier, she is in constant, intolerable pain but may well live years rather than months.
She is a committed Christian, totally compus mentis, but wants help to end her life, which is too much of a burden for her?

[Sassy]

So, what about those with life limiting illness which, whilst progressive, is not terminal?
In the case of Mary - of whom I posted earlier on this thread - the normal paliative pain killers are not recommended - they clash with her existing medication.
Again, as posted earlier, she is in constant, intolerable pain but may well live years rather than months.
She is a committed Christian, totally compus mentis, but wants help to end her life, which is too much of a burden for her?

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

[Owlswing]

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

If your God had been a decent bloke and not a vindictive sadistic (insert expleteive of your choice) he wouldn't have inflicted the plethora of unpleasant diseases on humanity in the first place.

[Sebastian Toe]

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

Maybe you could ask him on her behalf?

[floo]

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

What a load of BALONEY, you certainly can't trust god to do anything decent!

[Anchorman]

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

That opens the debate.
Did God allow scientists to develop paliative drugs?
Did He endorse the work of Christian medics who were developing medication which, if administered, would be not only life limiting, but life ending?
And what if a deeply committed Christian who has no quality of life, repeatedly asks God to end it - but she remains enduring agony of body and soul?
With respect, Sass, your answer is trite under the circumstances.

If (and when, though that situation may be decades in the future) my situation deteriorates to an extent that my quality of life is non existant, I may very well face the same dilemma as Mary.

[Sassy]

Maybe you could ask him on her behalf?

No! Let her ask herself or those friends like Anchorman.
I watched my grandmother die from cancer and she never moaned, complained or wish herself dead. Like my cousin who died aged 33 from cancer they faced it and they embraced the suffering without complaint and died very bravely and without wishing themselves dead.
My grandmother refused food towards the end she starved herself practically. Only took morphine in her last 48 hours.

My sister died at 13 and my nephew was murdered. My nephew suffered cruel beatings.
My cousins children have cystic fibrosis. You think they are not suffering?
Sorry! I don't believe you or anyone have the right to ask me to pray for death for someone.

We have children with heart disease a genetic heart disease.
Whilst I feel for everyone suffering from pain and sickness. You have no right to ask me to pray for their death. I pray for cures to be found and healing.

[Sassy]

That opens the debate.
Did God allow scientists to develop paliative drugs?
Did He endorse the work of Christian medics who were developing medication which, if administered, would be not only life limiting, but life ending?
And what if a deeply committed Christian who has no quality of life, repeatedly asks God to end it - but she remains enduring agony of body and soul?
With respect, Sass, your answer is trite under the circumstances.

If (and when, though that situation may be decades in the future) my situation deteriorates to an extent that my quality of life is non existant, I may very well face the same dilemma as Mary.

How long would Mary live without her medication?
God has provided everything good for man including the science of medication.
There is no debate about medication and as for being trite I have seen suffering amongst my own as the earlier post showed. You said that the pain killers would interfere with her medication she is now on. Why, if she seeks to die and be pain free now is she taking medication besides her pain killers?

So you have the same illness as Mary?

I am not sure but it appears from the above you are saying you have the same condition?

When you see Christ on the cross, and his suffering do you believe if you were the only sinner he would have died for you, alone?  Then why don't you believe what is written?

By his stripes were are healed.


Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Why not ask your saviour to do as it is written. With his stripes we are healed. No, if's, but's or maybe.  You sound as if you question the truth rather than approach God and our Lord Jesus with it.

[Sebastian Toe]

No! Let her ask herself or those friends like Anchorman.
I watched my grandmother die from cancer and she never moaned, complained or wish herself dead. Like my cousin who died aged 33 from cancer they faced it and they embraced the suffering without complaint and died very bravely and without wishing themselves dead.
My grandmother refused food towards the end she starved herself practically. Only took morphine in her last 48 hours.

My sister died at 13 and my nephew was murdered. My nephew suffered cruel beatings.
My cousins children have cystic fibrosis. You think they are not suffering?
Sorry! I don't believe you or anyone have the right to ask me to pray for death for someone.

We have children with heart disease a genetic heart disease.
Whilst I feel for everyone suffering from pain and sickness. You have no right to ask me to pray for their death. I pray for cures to be found and healing.

I never asked you to.
You gave two alternatives.

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?

You could of course choose the first one. But for some reason you chose to ignore that one in order to get a cheap shot in.
So why don't you,

ask the LORD God to heal her.
 Do you think the LORD God would ignore you?

[Owlswing]

No! Let her ask herself or those friends like Anchorman.
I watched my grandmother die from cancer and she never moaned, complained or wish herself dead. Like my cousin who died aged 33 from cancer they faced it and they embraced the suffering without complaint and died very bravely and without wishing themselves dead.
My grandmother refused food towards the end she starved herself practically. Only took morphine in her last 48 hours.

My sister died at 13 and my nephew was murdered. My nephew suffered cruel beatings.
My cousins children have cystic fibrosis. You think they are not suffering?
Sorry! I don't believe you or anyone have the right to ask me to pray for death for someone.

We have children with heart disease a genetic heart disease.
Whilst I feel for everyone suffering from pain and sickness. You have no right to ask me to pray for their death. I pray for cures to be found and healing.

Considering the amount of pain, suffering, and death that your God has inflicted upon members of your family and your circle of friends, I am amazed that you continue to hold him in the awe and respect that you do! I truly cannot understand how or why you can do so. How any intelligent and caring person can still consider your God to be worthy of your continued love and grovelling obedience is totally beyond my comprehension.

If you can accept these happenings as a "test of your faith", calls me to seriously question your entire personality. 

[Sassy]

I never asked you to.

Clearly you did...
Check the post, I suggest asking God for healing or to take her.
The second suggestion was that WE search/look for an alternative pain killers.

You gave two alternatives.You could of course choose the first one. But for some reason you chose to ignore that one in order to get a cheap shot in.
So why don't you,

That is wrong because the first one alone was about asking God. The second referred to "we" looking for an alternative pain killers. So there was NO way you could be referring to the second choice be about asking God, only the first.

ask the LORD God to heal her.
 Do you think the LORD God would ignore you?

Again you clearly show you were referring to the first choice of her dying or being healed.
And you omitted what was written.

  Sassy on October 09, 2016, 11:14:28 PM

There are two ways I see possible. Mary asks the LORD God to heal or to take her peacefully in her sleep. Do you think the LORD God would ignore her?
I feel that there are only those options or she looks for alternative medicines and pain killers. It is so sad but we cannot make those decisions for others or help them take their own lives. We can trust God to take her or heal her. We can also look for alternative pain killers.

Maybe you could ask him on her behalf?

It is clear the option was for Mary to ask God to heal her or taker her. One option the second was WE can look for alternative pain killers. So the only thing you could ask me to ask God for was the single option of healing or death.  As I said Mary and Anchorman etc can do that.

I made clear in my post to you...

You have no right to ask me to pray for their death. I pray for cures to be found and healing.

At not time did you suggest you were asking for only healing. It is settled you were the one taking the cheap shot.

[floo]

My father died 11 years today. I am so very grateful the high dose of painkillers he was given at our insistence, ended his suffering and life within hours.

[Anchorman]

How long would Mary live without her medication? God has provided everything good for man including the science of medication. There is no debate about medication and as for being trite I have seen suffering amongst my own as the earlier post showed. You said that the pain killers would interfere with her medication she is now on. Why, if she seeks to die and be pain free now is she taking medication besides her pain killers? So you have the same illness as Mary?[/ I am not sure but it appears from the above you are saying you have the same condition? When you see Christ on the cross, and his suffering do you believe if you were the only sinner he would have died for you, alone?  Then why don't you believe what is written? By his stripes were are healed.  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Why not ask your saviour to do as it is written. With his stripes we are healed. No, if's, but's or maybe.  You sound as if you question the truth rather than approach God and our Lord Jesus with it.

How long would Mary live without her medication? God has provided everything good for man including the science of medication. There is no debate about medication and as for being trite I have seen suffering amongst my own as the earlier post showed. You said that the pain killers would interfere with her medication she is now on. Why, if she seeks to die and be pain free now is she taking medication besides her pain killers? Because she is in Pain? That might be a reason for doctors prescribing pain killers. - So you have the same illness as Mary? - Where did I say that I have the same condition as Mary? This is not the case. My condition is nevertheless beyond medics to deal with and will be progressive. - I am not sure but it appears from the above you are saying you have the same condition? When you see Christ on the cross, and his suffering do you believe if you were the only sinner he would have died for you, alone?  Then why don't you believe what is written? By his stripes were are healed.  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Why not ask your saviour to do as it is written. With his stripes we are healed. No, if's, but's or maybe.  You sound as if you question the truth rather than approach God and our Lord Jesus with it.

Thanks for yet more Jacobean English. Are you saying that we should put up with all suffering and pain even though there is no quality of life because it's a test of faith? Really? Yes, I agree, many believers down through the ages have had suffering - from Paul onwards - and they have been used despite - rather than because of - any disabilities they had. However, God has given us minds , and many Christians through the ages have used those minds to develop medication which can improve quality of life - or eas suffering - and in the latter case, that medication can end it. Why, Sass, would God allow this medication to exist? To tempt those who He considers His children to test their faith by choosing a long agonised existance with no hope in this world of healing when all the prayers have been prayed and the answer 'No' given? That's not the God I know - thankfully. As I posted earlier; involuntary euthanasia - without the express consent of the sufferer - is wrong. Assisted dying, when after independent medical assesment by two separate specialists, the suffer is adamant, cannot be ruled out - in the name of compassion and love.