Po-faced Christians and Halloween

[Nearly Sane]

Just to echo Anchorman's take and note that all the ghost and witches stuff was very prevalent in guising. And again to echo Jim, most of the costumes would be homemade, maybe using a plastic guising mask. Indeed, one of the common party pieces that one might have in the West of Scotland would be to recite part of Tam O'Shanter, which is chock full of witches.

Certainly when I was growing up, Halloween was a much bigger thing for us than Bonfire Night.

[Brownie]

I don't know if Anchorman is a Scot like yourself, NS, but wonder if guising was more popular in Scotland than England because I never came across it here.

Guy Fawkes night is probably celebrated here more than Scotland because the Houses of Parliament are in London.

Halloween was also low key compared to now, no trick or treating, but some people had parties (often combining both) if their birthdays were around that time.  There was apple bobbing and that sort of thing.

The only problem I have with fireworks, apart from potential danger if people aren't careful, is how they scare pets.  Most of us will keep them indoors (they are still scared, my cats used to cuddle up and shudder), but cats often go out early and don't come back for hours.  They really are quite terrified.  Still, fireworks are very pretty and we get a lot of them at this time of year, Deepvali onwards.

[Nearly Sane]

To be fair, there has been much effort in my home town to keep the idea of guising and galoshans continuing, rather than trick or treating, which is the US adaptation of the first 2, but it is very much only an adaptation, and one that can be seen to arise from them.

[Gordon]

Just to echo Anchorman's take and note that all the ghost and witches stuff was very prevalent in guising. And again to echo Jim, most of the costumes would be homemade, maybe using a plastic guising mask. Indeed, one of the common party pieces that one might have in the West of Scotland would be to recite part of Tam O'Shanter, which is chock full of witches.

Certainly when I was growing up, Halloween was a much bigger thing for us than Bonfire Night.

I remember as a kid, in the late 1950's/early 60's, we had masks that were known (in Glasgow anyway) as 'false faces' - they were made of a kind of cardboard so that as the night wore on the mouth got soggier and soggier.
 
Happy days.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't know if Anchorman is a Scot like yourself, NS, but wonder if guising was more popular in Scotland than England because I never came across it here.

Guy Fawkes night is probably celebrated here more than Scotland because the Houses of Parliament are in London.

Halloween was also low key compared to now, no trick or treating, but some people had parties (often combining both) if their birthdays were around that time.  There was apple bobbing and that sort of thing.

The only problem I have with fireworks, apart from potential danger if people aren't careful, is how they scare pets.  Most of us will keep them indoors (they are still scared, my cats used to cuddle up and shudder), but cats often go out early and don't come back for hours.  They really are quite terrified.  Still, fireworks are very pretty and we get a lot of them at this time of year, Deepvali onwards.

Both Anchorman and I are West of Scotland chaps. The point is that the traditions of Halloween are also entwined with Celtic roots in Samhain. This was what was exported to the US and adapted.


Anchorman and I are from either side of the sectarian divide in the West of Scotland, a divide that has its own peculiar relationship with history. The subtext of the Gunpowder Plot being a Roman Catholic conspiracy where a Catholic is the effigy burnt made it problematic as a community activity. Thankfully we have moved on a little in that aspect and most of the real history is getting burnt away from it.

[Anchorman]

Brownie; Yep. I'm very much a Scot (For my sins I'm a reader in the Church of Scotland to boot) I've never really understood the guy fawkes thingy here - after all, in 1605, James VI was an absentee landlord, and Scotland's parliament met in Edinburgh - so why we remember the failure to blow up Westminster her is a mystery to me....still, any excuse for a shindig! Gordon's right - 'False faces' did get soggier as the night wore on - and dependant on the liquid imbibed, more fragrant (and possibly a fire hazard) We had to imbibe, you understand: the loss of blood in carving the blasted turnip lanterns had to be replaced in SOME manner.....!

[Anchorman]

Speaking of Dan (the aforesaid source of my appreciation of 'the cratur'), Dan Robertson was avery committed Christian minister who was also passionately interested in Celtic spirituality, and the mythology of the Gealtachdt. As well as encouraging the maintainance of the old traditions, I have him to thank for being made aware of the Iona Community, an ecumenical group technically under the oversight of the Church of Scotland, which I joined as a young Christian in the early eighties, and with which I still hold many ties (Plus when some of us get together, there's a fair selection of whiskies available....)

[ProfessorDavey]

Halloween was also low key compared to now, no trick or treating, but some people had parties (often combining both) if their birthdays were around that time.  There was apple bobbing and that sort of thing.

I was a child growing up in England in the 1960s and 70s - firstly in the North West, then in Hertfordshire.

We always celebrated Halloween and this was completely separate from bonfire night. No-one in our family had a birthday at that timer of year so it was never linked to a birthday party.

My Mum was from the west of Scotland which may perhaps explain its significant. That said it was a pretty common thing when I was growing up - there wasn't trick or treat, but we did have Halloween parties with ducking for apples, the house got decorated, we'd tell spooky stories and play spooky games.

[Sassy]

Sorry but you are talking rubbish.

Guising continued (and continues) in Britain well after your date, and the American trick or treat seems to be a direct copy of late 19thC and early 20thC guising practice./quote]

I am not wrong just because you want it to be wrong.
The trick and treating of today originated in the USA in the 1920's. FACT.

So, for example in 1895 guising in Scotland is described as 'masqueraders in disguise carrying lanterns made out of scooped out turnips, visit homes to be rewarded with cakes, fruit and money' - sound familiar. Actually the American tradition was also described as guising and was first recorded only in the early 20thC (about 1910), the term trick or treat only appeared later still (about the late 1920s).

Again read the history... lanterns have been used ALL the time in all nations as lights before street lamps.
You could not see your hand before your face in the darkness of night when no moon or clouds.
What I said is correct but then we were not there were we.

The modern form of trick or treat is American and started in the 1920's.  The others have been explained to you.
You were incorrect as you took one form of 'guising' to cover all. Christ is the beginning of Christianity but many sects claim there is one true Church and they are it. But God knows his children and they are the ones who do as Christ did.
They obey the commandments to love God and others.

So the American trick or treat is a direct copy of earlier British traditions.

And the notion that wearing of costumes is a specifically American thing is again totally wrong - the whole point of 'guising' (indeed the derivation of the word) is that people worn costumes to disguise themselves as they went door to door to receive treats.

[ProfessorDavey]

The modern form of trick or treat is American and started in the 1920's.

The only thing that happened in the late 1920s was that the name of a custom began to change - from guising to trick or treat. The custom itself remained the same. And that custom was imported into the USA from Britain. We have since imported the evolved custom back, but its origins remain British.

What I said is correct but then we were not there were we.

Actually some posters here were there - in other words have childhood memories of guising in Britain.

[Brownie]

Thank you very much those of you for the information about the celtic roots of guising and other surrounding history.  It's very interesting and I knew little about it before.

[ippy]

So what is too much of our cultural bits? What about recognising that much of those elements are based on what we exported to the US?

Yes interesting Bill Bryson touches on this in his book, the one he did about America, bit late can't think of the correct name of it.

ippy

[ippy]

God's existence or anything about him/her/it cannot be proved or disproved with the Bible.

It's all about personal experience and that can't really be satisfactorily put into words no matter how we try.

Exactly, you've no evidence.

ippy

[Brownie]

Never said I did, ippy.

[Sassy]

The only thing that happened in the late 1920s was that the name of a custom began to change - from guising to trick or treat. The custom itself remained the same. And that custom was imported into the USA from Britain. We have since imported the evolved custom back, but its origins remain British.
Actually some posters here were there - in other words have childhood memories of guising in Britain.

Look Prof, You were wrong, you obviously googled and got it wrong. Should have read the history.  You can't change the facts.

[Brownie]

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/10/how-the-tradition-of-trick-or-treating-got-started/

http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_halloween.htm

[ProfessorDavey]

Look Prof, You were wrong, you obviously googled and got it wrong. Should have read the history.  You can't change the facts.

On the contrary, you have it wrong Sassy.

For example see more evidence from Brownie (last post) that the Americans imported the British tradition of guising - over time it evolved and the name changed, but the basic custom remained the same.

What we now know as trick or treat was originally a British custom and was imported into the states in late Victorian times.

Those are the facts Sassy, whichever record of history you read.

[Harrowby Hall]

All Souls Night was orginally NOTHING to do with the American Halloween now infiltrated into our Country.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT:      All Souls was nothing to do with American Halloween.

ABSULUTELY WRONG:   Halloween is All Souls. All Souls is the day after All Saints not the day before.

[ProfessorDavey]

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT:      All Souls was nothing to do with American Halloween.

ABSULUTELY WRONG:   Halloween is All Souls. All Souls is the day after All Saints not the day before.

Correct.

And presumably all souls night, as referred to be Sassy would be the night before all souls day, in other words all saints day. Halloween is, of course, the night before all saints day (or all hallows day). And as with so many other festivals this is a Christianisation of an earlier pagan festival.

[ippy]

Never said I did, ippy.

I was agreeing with your statement that in effect declared that you have nothing in the way of evidence would support your religious belief.

ippy

[Brownie]

Fairynuff.

[Brownie]

Prof, just a thought, you know a lot about Celtic spirituality and customs, you might be interested in Owlswing's thread in Faith Sharing.