Author Topic: What next?  (Read 2186 times)

Nearly Sane

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What next?
« on: November 10, 2016, 01:06:28 PM »
Posted this elsewhere, more than ever I find myself haunted by Yeats' The Second Coming.


Apologies for this long,  wordy and meandering post (rather like its author). You don't have to read it, but I need to write it to get some stuff out of my head.

When I went to bed on Wednesday morning, Malbec insulated, I was not at all shocked. The result was not a surprise. When I awoke yesterday it was with a sense of bemusement not at the result but at the question What Next? What to do next in a world where any action would seem likely to increase the divisions. What next in a place where facts have become obsolete? What next in a time when it appears the winners haven't any real clue as to what next either?

Many of you will have seen or  posted the meme of the island of Ireland with the adaptation of words from Stuck in the Middle with You, but it is the original words that haunt me. There are clowns to the right of me and jokes to the right, and indeed vice versa. They would appear to be part of an unholy alliance working together were it not for one thing - that it's mirrored on my 'side'.

This mirror effect is something I have felt for some time. Much of my posting during the Scottish referendum was trying to keep the constant 'othering' by some on the Yes side of No voters. Despite all the talk of civic nationalism, there was a strain in that campaign which used the same approach as Trump and Brexit. There are, no doubt, morons who voted Trump and racists for Brexit but the easy labelling of millions of people is anathema to thinking discourse.

There has been much talk that the Scottish referendum was somehow divisive in a new way, and that has been echoed about the EU referendum, but surely with the obvious divides caused by the US election, we have to conclude that it wasn't because of a referendum, or because the 'other' side are somehow uniquely evil in the history of democracy? Rather the communication age is one that not only allows to create echo chambers, but seems to enforce it. In terms of the Scottish and EU referendums, and the UK and US elections, I have had a shifting set of alliances in  both real and virtual life. I have come close to falling out with some, though I have, I think, managed to avoid anything too serious. That those alliances have not been the same ones each time underlines to me that the idea of this time the 'other' side are the Evil Empire must be false.

Having swung through a number of political parties in my life, I am unconvinced that they currently offer much of a What Next. The gap that seems inevitable between rhetoric and delivery seems to be growing.   We seem to have removed principle for positions, and yet ignored the growing complexity of what we are trying to solve. This seems to me to lead back to labelling and to the sense that many have both on the alt-right and alt-left that this is some conspiracy.. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is lots of corruption in the world but if the grand conspirators can't get Scotrail to run on time, I am more inclined to the cock up theory as I always have. There has been lots written on the various plebiscites and elections, and indeed the atrocities we have seen in recent years which starts off with grand solutions and visceral certainty. That certainty is always backed up with the idea that the 'other' side is wronger than a racer snake.

I fear that if we continue in this mode, that many hard won rights may be lost, and in the main that will because fear itself drives the division. I am unconvinced that Trump or Brexit or Scottish independence will be as bad or good as people seem forced to think of them. That said, the Trump election is, as I have noted elsewhere,  probably most important because of the Supreme Court. Despite my dislike of the games played in not confirming a replacement for Scalia, whoever that replacement is, it's fine if it is someone in Scalia's mould. I disliked much of his thinking but again he was not the evil he was portrayed as. But there is a good chance that we might see the replacement of Breyer, Kennedy, and as someone called her elsewhere, the Notorious RBG. Given Trump's VP, I think this could be an area where he is pushed by the religious right. Again they will be seeking to do what they think is right, not acting out of ingrained badness, but it could lead to a walkback on those hard won rights, and that would for me be a tragedy.

I read Michael Moore's five points and groaned at the whole let's be dicks because the Republicans were dicks. It is how you get trapped in a narrative which allows to act in a way you call out the other side for doing.  It ensures that instead of there being a numpty quotient, we all become numpties. The divides we see are merely temporary alliances. There is evil in the world but it is not in everyone you disagree with. I think things can get better but we need to reduce expectations. We need to have more doubt in ourselves and less fear of thinking we might be wrong.

And finally (if any one is still reading you are allowed a mini whoop at this) I keep coming back to this whole labelling thing. Apparently many people see Trump and Brexit as victories against neo liberalism, which I find odd given some on each of those winning sides. Even odder is I don't think there is really such a thing. We love our isms, our world views but most people work on simple rules of thumb which struggle deal with complexities like Syria. Maybe we need to stop labelling both ourselves and others as if we are tribes and ask what do we both want.

ad_orientem

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Re: What next?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 01:33:08 PM »
Revolution!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 02:07:44 PM by ad_orientem »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 01:58:44 PM »

Udayana

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Re: What next?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 04:59:06 PM »
There is no point "uniting" behind programs to turn more of the planet into garbage, whether through brexit or Trump's idiot proposals.  As Moore suggests you must fight, resist and obstruct wherever you are able to. Every detail should be examined and contested where wrong.

If not more engaged, the alternative is to become disengaged - let the place go to hell, why not? More of a conflict for me.

On a personal level, I find myself a lot less sympathetic, accommodating or friendly with any who I know or feel may have voted for brexit. Everyone should be treated fairly, but I don't owe them any respect. If it does turn out , somehow, that they are "right", proper scrutiny can only help the process.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 05:05:03 PM »
There is no point "uniting" behind programs to turn more of the planet into garbage, whether through brexit or Trump's idiot proposals.  As Moore suggests you must fight, resist and obstruct wherever you are able to. Every detail should be examined and contested where wrong.

If not more engaged, the alternative is to become disengaged - let the place go to hell, why not? More of a conflict for me.

On a personal level, I find myself a lot less sympathetic, accommodating or friendly with any who I know or feel may have voted for brexit. Everyone should be treated fairly, but I don't owe them any respect. If it does turn out , somehow, that they are "right", proper scrutiny can only help the process.
who says portraying others as not evil is not engaging? Or that any of what I wrote was about letting things 'go to hell'? Creating strawmen here seems an exact definition of the problem. There are realities to be dealt with and they are crucially about people. Just going 'those lot are racists/homophobes/insert random insult here isn't going to deal with where we are.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 05:10:25 PM by Nearly Sane »

torridon

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Re: What next?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2016, 05:31:16 PM »
NS, I'd echo your comment on echo chambers (sorry).

It might be an unintentional unforeseen side effect of the global communications age.  Who would have thought greater availability of information channels could be a bad thing, surely we will all be better off for being better informed.  I don't think it is that simple, a multiplicity of information channels makes it easier for confirmation biases to grow and harden compared to our parents generation who took their information and opinions from a handful of newspapers.  The internet has been a boon most of all to the outliers of mainstream thought, the conspiracy theorists, the religio/political extremists and any lunatic fringe who had no broadcast voice before the Web came along.  It's not just the nutters though, many of us are probably hardening our prejudices due to the easy nourishment of confirmation bias.

Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2016, 05:37:15 PM »
NS, I'd echo your comment on echo chambers (sorry).

It might be an unintentional unforeseen side effect of the global communications age.  Who would have thought greater availability of information channels could be a bad thing, surely we will all be better off for being better informed.  I don't think it is that simple, a multiplicity of information channels makes it easier for confirmation biases to grow and harden compared to our parents generation who took their information and opinions from a handful of newspapers.  The internet has been a boon most of all to the outliers of mainstream thought, the conspiracy theorists, the religio/political extremists and any lunatic fringe who had no broadcast voice before the Web came along.  It's not just the nutters though, many of us are probably hardening our prejudices due to the easy nourishment of confirmation bias.
to that last sentence in particular, A-fecking-men

Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 05:38:26 PM »
NS, I'd echo your comment on echo chambers (sorry).

It might be an unintentional unforeseen side effect of the global communications age.  Who would have thought greater availability of information channels could be a bad thing, surely we will all be better off for being better informed.  I don't think it is that simple, a multiplicity of information channels makes it easier for confirmation biases to grow and harden compared to our parents generation who took their information and opinions from a handful of newspapers.  The internet has been a boon most of all to the outliers of mainstream thought, the conspiracy theorists, the religio/political extremists and any lunatic fringe who had no broadcast voice before the Web came along.  It's not just the nutters though, many of us are probably hardening our prejudices due to the easy nourishment of confirmation bias.
and can I share this post elsewhere?

torridon

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Re: What next?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2016, 06:16:26 PM »
Sure no worries  ;)

Udayana

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Re: What next?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 06:46:30 PM »
...Just going 'those lot are racists/homophobes/insert random insult here isn't going to deal with where we are.

Quite, which is why I was suggesting dealing with specific issues. The alternative being to ignore the whole thing and just deal with my own concerns - a recourse to which I am more and more inclined.
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Jack Knave

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Re: What next?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 07:44:12 PM »
Malbec!!!!!!!!!

Oh, you want a response to the rest?

Jack Knave

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Re: What next?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 08:09:02 PM »
When the stakes are high the polarization is also high - no one wants to back down, and giving the opponents an eye to a chink in your armour would be fatal, so we lie and spin to cover our arses and give the impression we are strong and upright.

The thing about this polarization is that it is not about rational arguments but emotions and so to present arguments, and debate various issues and topics, in how we escape the dilemma modern man is in today will go nowhere. The forces driving this lemming style gallop we are in today are more basic and fundamental than this.

jeremyp

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Re: What next?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 09:23:33 PM »
Revolution!
Revolution never works out well for the ordinary people.
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jeremyp

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Re: What next?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 09:25:30 PM »
I read Michael Moore's five points and groaned at the whole let's be dicks because the Republicans were dicks. It is how you get trapped in a narrative which allows to act in a way you call out the other side for doing. 

I agree with this, but I think pretty much everything Trump does will be worth being a dick about because it's likely to be really horrible. If he does something good, it shouldn't be opposed, but don't get your hopes up.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2016, 02:12:36 PM »
Due to Gabriella posting a link to a review on a Michael Moore film on another thread I discovered the article below. I don't agree with all of it but certainly the idea that our perception is affected by algorithms on social media chimes. It also links in with the redundancy of facts that we seem to be moving to

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/10/facebook-im-begging-you-please-make-yourself-better/
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 02:49:48 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: What next?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2016, 01:31:28 PM »
And a friend sent me this, which echoes much of my OP


http://charleseisenstein.net/hategriefandanewstory/

Hope

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Re: What next?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2016, 10:50:06 PM »
Who would have thought greater availability of information channels could be a bad thing, surely we will all be better off for being better informed. 
I think that, to a degree, that is the very problem we face, more information doesn't necessarily mean to be better informed.
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jeremyp

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Re: What next?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2016, 01:29:55 AM »
And a friend sent me this, which echoes much of my OP


http://charleseisenstein.net/hategriefandanewstory/
I want to pick up one point from that article. In 2012, 65,915,796 people voted for Barack Obama, about 51% of the people who voted. His opponent, Mitt Romney polled 60,933,500

It is projected that the final count for 2016 will show Hillary Clinton with 63.4 million votes and Donald Trump with 61.2 million votes, so millions of Obama voters did not switch to Trump as the article states, they just stayed at home. Even so, most people still voted for Clinton but that contradicts the narrative some people are trying to push, so it's conveniently forgotten.
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