The real problem of consciousness?

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting approach



https://aeon.co/essays/the-hard-problem-of-consciousness-is-a-distraction-from-the-real-one

[Sriram]

The best way to think of Consciousness is not to think of it as an external object to be studied objectively. Think of it as the subject itself...and we'll get somewhere. 

[splashscuba]

The best way to think of Consciousness is not to think of it as an external object to be studied objectively. Think of it as the subject itself...and we'll get somewhere.

Or maybe as a hypothesis, we could think of both the conscious and sub conscious as simply emergent properties of the brain. To studies consciousness in isolation from the brain is pretty pointless.

[Sriram]

The brain is a necessary hardware. But my point is that, Consciousness is what is doing the study. It is the subject. It can't be the object.

[Maeght]

Interesting approach



https://aeon.co/essays/the-hard-problem-of-consciousness-is-a-distraction-from-the-real-one

Very interesting. I went to a talk a few years back where the speaker spoke of the constant feedback loops going on in the mind when we experience things - the brain searching in its prior experiences for the closest match, checking with different areas which referred to colour, or shape, or texture etc to decide what the current experience was. He considered that consciousness is that communication going on between different parts of the brain. Makes sense to me.

[ekim]

Very interesting. I went to a talk a few years back where the speaker spoke of the constant feedback loops going on in the mind when we experience things - the brain searching in its prior experiences for the closest match, checking with different areas which referred to colour, or shape, or texture etc to decide what the current experience was. He considered that consciousness is that communication going on between different parts of the brain. Makes sense to me.

Did he say what happens when searching, thinking, communicating ceases and consciousness continues in stillness, as in deep meditation?

[Maeght]

Did he say what happens when searching, thinking, communicating ceases and consciousness continues in stillness, as in deep meditation?

Not specifically. I think there have been studies about how meditation effects internal brain communications though (i.e. reduces them) but that's only off the top of my head.

[torridon]

Interesting approach



https://aeon.co/essays/the-hard-problem-of-consciousness-is-a-distraction-from-the-real-one

Thanks for this.

I went to see Anil Seth talk about this and his work at the Sackler Institute last month; all very interesting but a lot to absorb in a real time lecture so am glad to have what seems in effect to be a transcript of his talk to study offline, so to speak.

[L.A.]

It strikes me that the real problem of consciousness, is that while it is the only thing in the universe that we can experience directly, no one has a satisfactory definition of what it is - or to put it another way - what we are.

[Walter]

WELL, NS
at least you've managed to shake some life into all the whacko's 

[Sriram]

It strikes me that the real problem of consciousness, is that while it is the only thing in the universe that we can experience directly, no one has a satisfactory definition of what it is - or to put it another way - what we are.

Yes. We are Consciousness. It is not some external object that we can study objectively.   According to Biocentrism (thread in the science section) Consciousness is the source of the universe and not the other way around. And that is what most ancient spiritual philosophies also talk about.

[torridon]

Yes. We are Consciousness. It is not some external object that we can study objectively.   According to Biocentrism (thread in the science section) Consciousness is the source of the universe and not the other way around. And that is what most ancient spiritual philosophies also talk about.

Seth's approach to the hard problem owes nothing to biocentrism, rather his approach is a pragmatic one - by seeking to tackle aspects of the contents of consciousness, the hard problem will eventually dissolve.  Biocentrism should be moved from the Science section to the Woo section, btw.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I have no evidence either way that you guys are not philosophical zombies that is, mere unconscious machines.

[L.A.]

I have no evidence either way that you guys are not philosophical zombies that is, mere unconscious machines.

I think the next decade or two will see developments in AI where devices start to exceed the Turing Test dramatically - but could they ever be described as conscious in any way?

[torridon]

I think the next decade or two will see developments in AI where devices start to exceed the Turing Test dramatically - but could they ever be described as conscious in any way?

I would assume so, though not in the near term.  Nobody working in AI sees carbon as having some magical properties.  Consciousness is information flow within a bounded system and there is no reason to suppose that only carbon based substrates are up to the job of hosting that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I would assume so, though not in the near term.  Nobody working in AI sees carbon as having some magical properties.  Consciousness is information flow within a bounded system and there is no reason to suppose that only carbon based substrates are up to the job of hosting that.

By the beard of Dennett! You can have an information flow without consciousness can't you? I'm watching my TV at the moment and find it to be information flow within a bounded system. So that makes consciousness a bit different.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Very interesting. I went to a talk a few years back where the speaker spoke of the constant feedback loops going on in the mind when we experience things - the brain searching in its prior experiences for the closest match, checking with different areas which referred to colour, or shape, or texture etc to decide what the current experience was. He considered that consciousness is that communication going on between different parts of the brain. Makes sense to me.

But the bummer is is that you could have all of what has been posted and not need consciousness.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Or maybe as a hypothesis, we could think of both the conscious and sub conscious as simply emergent properties of the brain. To studies consciousness in isolation from the brain is pretty pointless.

Ah, emergence did it.

[Jack Knave]

Seth's approach to the hard problem owes nothing to biocentrism, rather his approach is a pragmatic one - by seeking to tackle aspects of the contents of consciousness, the hard problem will eventually dissolve.  Biocentrism should be moved from the Science section to the Woo section, btw.

It won't dissolve it will just become out of view as they put on their blinkers.

[Maeght]

But the bummer is is that you could have all of what has been posted and not need consciousness.

That makes no sense if what has been posted is consciousness.