Islamification in the UK.

[Sriram]

Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular?  I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it.  Neither does distrust.

Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not.  Nadiya Hussein is an example of that.  I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here.  Who knows?

Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.

The problem is that due to decades (centuries) of dominance in military, science and economy...the West has become terribly judgmental.   Everything they do is right and anything that is done differently is simply wrong. Progress is always the way the West is going.

This is changing of course, but still some way to go.

Nothing to do with Islamification (?) of UK....but just some thoughts.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I see it rarely now but when I do it comes as a surprise and think to myself  WTF?

Surely there are lots of WTF moments in life though. Things like this are not particularly alarming - at least not enough to despair about the state of the country and worry about immigration.

If I see a girl in a barely there skirt with bare legs and a flimsy top out for the night when it's really cold - that's more a WTF moment for me compared to a niqab. It wouldn't make me despair about the state of the country though.

I think differences stop Life being too boring.

[Walter]

Surely there are lots of WTF moments in life though. Things like this are not particularly alarming - at least not enough to despair about the state of the country and worry about immigration.

If I see a girl in a barely there skirt with bare legs and a flimsy top out for the night when it's really cold - that's more a WTF moment for me compared to a niqab. It wouldn't make me despair about the state of the country though.

I think differences stop Life being too boring.

until the different blow you to fucking bits . but thanks for your reply

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

until the different blow you to fucking bits . but thanks for your reply

Very droll  - did a woman in niqab try to blow you to bits or do you just suffer from an over-active imagination?

I grew up in London during the IRA bombing campaign. I was working in Canary Wharf when the IRA set off a bomb in the Docklands. Like most British people I didn't over-react every time I passed an Irish man or woman. In fact after-work drinks often ended up in an Irish pub.

Anyway, why worry about getting blown to bits now - people have been blowing each other to bits for centuries - the current UK economy depends on it since manufacturing and selling weapons which blow people to bits pays for a lot of the services and infrastructure in Britain. Some towns in Britain depend on the defence industry. Clearly the risk of their fellow citizens getting blown to bits is a price worth paying for the British arms manufacturers and ordinary people who want economic prosperity - most people don't complain about the jobs the arms industry provides.

I think you're making this blowing to bits thing way too personal - it's just business.

[letstryagain]

Not sure about the Islamification of Britain but I do think we are being overly tolerant. For example we have defacto accepted Islamic blasphemy rules which means that no honest examination of the life of Mohammad can be made without the very real fear of violence, I do not understand why it is acceptable to make fun of Christians, politicians almost everything but Islam. I also think we have not pushed back when Muslims have overstepped the mark, I am thinking of Salmon Rushdie, we should have stood up for our right to expression and yes right to offend, I don't blame muslims for this I blame wrong headed people in authority who are judging a medieval mindset with 21st century values, the end result everyone is unhappy because there are no clear boundaries.

[Udayana]

er .. where have we accepted Islamic blasphemy rules? And we did stand up for Salmon Rushdie and rights of free speech, surely?

[letstryagain]

Would we print a cartoon of Mohammad? If not why not? I seem to recall we put Rushdie into hiding and took no action against the people threatening him or burning books.

[Harrowby Hall]

Extracts from a news report from The Times:

Muslim girls must take part in school swimming lessons alongside boys because burkinis meet Islamic strictures governing modesty, the German constitutional court has ruled.
In a case brought by an 11-year-old from a Moroccan family, judges at Germany’s highest court said that schools had a duty to promote “social behaviour” and that co-educational swimming was “not a particularly serious impairment of religious freedom”.
....
The judges said that sports education was compulsory in Hesse and noted that the girl took part in other sports while dressed in trousers, long sleeves and a headscarf ...  There was “a greater likelihood of unintended bodily contact between male and female pupils in the exercise of team sports than in swimming lessons”.
The girl’s lawyers had also argued that she could not avoid looking at scantily clad boys at the swimming pool but judges said that freedom of belief “must come behind the school mission” to educate and socialise pupils.

A statement that religious practices do not take precedence over national values in Germany.

[Udayana]

Would we print a cartoon of Mohammad? If not why not? I seem to recall we put Rushdie into hiding and took no action against the people threatening him or burning books.

There are (as far as I know) no laws to prohibit publication of those or other cartoons. Possibly a publisher could be prosecuted for anti-religious hate speech, but this seems unlikely and would probably fail. UK editors seem to have decided individually not to publish them, probably because they were already widely available and not really very funny.

Rushdie was given protection for many years, and the Satanic Verses continued to be published. There was no official ban. Most death threats were not in the UK, we could hardly have invaded Iran or Pakistan or prosecuted people for book burning. The only known would be assassin manged to blow himself up.

Actually this reminds me to get my copy out as I never actually finished it - Rushdie's books start off great but I always seem to lose interest halfway through!

On the whole I think the UK is handling "Muslim issues" reasonably well.
 

[Udayana]

Extracts from a news report from The Times:

A statement that religious practices do not take precedence over national values in Germany.

Seems entirely reasonable. We should do the same if there are significant numbers of Muslim girls skipping swimming for reasons of "modesty".