Who is Doing the Forgiving

[Anchorman]

Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS. Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to  a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)

[bluehillside Retd.]

Anchs,

Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS.

It sort of is if you expect anyone else to take your claim "God" seriously. A circular argument is a particularly bad way to attempt that.

Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to  a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)

Don't be. There are countless myths and superstitions that others find to be "amazing" too. Provided neither you nor they claims special privileges for them - being taught as facts to children for example - it's no-one's business but yours and theirs.

[ippy]

The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.

newnature, have you thought of going to see someone, only it looks like we may well be getting lessons from you about how to deal with Unicorns next.

Go to the faith sharing part of the forum and share your delusions with them.

ippy   

[Robbie]

He's done that, he doesn't do discussions there either.

[Dicky Underpants]

-
Hold the bus!
Do I accept the atonement?
Yep.
Do I understand what you are trying to say?
Yep!
However, the way you're purtting it forward, couched in theology speak, is a bit stilted and unattractive.

His 'atonement' seems to be of the penal substititution kind. The whole idea of atonement is all Greek to me, but the NN version is particularly bizarre, especially if the underlying belief is in a Trinitarian God. God requires a payment for 'sin' so he sends a bit of himself (second person of the Trinity) to make the payment to himself....
If indeed that floats NN's boat....but as bluehillside has implied elsewhere, all this theology stuff is built on vapors (or vapours, if you prefer).

[Dicky Underpants]

Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS. Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to  a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)

If there is a point to this doctrine of 'grace', I still find it bewildering that it should involve Jesus' 'sacrifice' - which was no sacrifice, since he was crucified because he was viewed as troublemaker to the Jewish and Roman authorities. God could quite easily bestow his 'grace' without this ludicrous scenario, invented by Paul, for no doubt very personal reasons. Assuming that there is a God of course....