Brexit and marriage

[Nearly Sane]

It wilk also herald the return of The Black and White Minstrel Show


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/06/brexit-opportunity-reverse-tragic-decline-marriage-britain/

[Harrowby Hall]

If my quick reading of the article you append is correct, the author, a former judge, is simply comparing the number of couples who, having children resulting from their relationship, decide to go through a formal procedure which provides a legal status for their relationship.

Bizarrely, the author then compares the incidence of these events with the incidence in other parts of Europe and then reaches the conclusion that it is the constitutional relationship of the UK with these other countries which is responsible for the - in his view - disturbing level of unmarried families in this country. This is a clear example of bullshit baffling brains. He is using statistics rather like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination.

One thing that he does not examine - or even consider - is the long term stability of unions, whether legally formalised or not.

[Nearly Sane]

If my quick reading of the article you append is correct, the author, a former judge, is simply comparing the number of couples who, having children resulting from their relationship, decide to go through a formal procedure which provides a legal status for their relationship.

Bizarrely, the author then compares the incidence of these events with the incidence in other parts of Europe and then reaches the conclusion that it is the constitutional relationship of the UK with these other countries which is responsible for the - in his view - disturbing level of unmarried families in this country. This is a clear example of bullshit baffling brains. He is using statistics rather like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination.

One thing that he does not examine - or even consider - is the long term stability of unions, whether legally formalised or not.

Yes, I think that seems to be the case,. There is a lot of confusing of causation and correlation, and a lot of what seems deliberate ignoring of multiple factors, in order to justify economically oppressing women into the kitchen.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

This is the daftest article that I have read in years. I thought upon reading the headline, that this would be about more people getting married post Brexit so as to enable kids to be issued with UK Passports.

But it is not. It is just complete bollards.

[Sriram]

I think what the author is trying to link is not just an individual event such as Brexit with marriage. I think it is more about a 'return of conservatism' that he is talking about. Conservatism, as opposed to ultra liberalism, is associated with nationalism, religious beliefs, marriage and family values. Brexit is a symptom of that.

So it is almost like a package deal. With the return of one way of thinking, other associated values will also return. That perhaps is his prediction and hope.

I don't blame him for that hope, frankly.

[Aruntraveller]

is associated with nationalism, religious beliefs, marriage and family values. Brexit is a symptom of that.

you missed quite a lot off that list.

Racism, sexism, bigotry. The expressed hatred of the uneducated against those that are different. Yeah - let's return to that.

[Sriram]

Societies and cultures usually move in stages.

-A  X +A = -A squared.    First one condition exists, then after some time its opposite condition arises. Then a third condition will evolve that will be a mix similar to the first but will also contain elements of the second.

So it will not be a return to exactly the first condition. Many elements of the second condition (liberalism) will also be present. 

[Harrowby Hall]

I think what the author is trying to link is not just an individual event such as Brexit with marriage. I think it is more about a 'return of conservatism' that he is talking about. Conservatism, as opposed to ultra liberalism, is associated with nationalism, religious beliefs, marriage and family values. Brexit is a symptom of that.

Sriram, this is an article in the Daily Telegraph. It is a right-wing, reactionary broadsheet, locked in the past. The article uses "statistics" in a nonsensical manner to demonstrate the moral inadequacy of EU countries: fewer couples with children bother to get married in other EU countries than in the UK. This is his sole measure. He does not look at the stability of relationships, nor does he look at measures such the incidence of divorce in the UK. He does not look at social or cultural influences on behaviour merely raises the flag of "marriage" as a measure of civilisation and Britishness. And by associating this with the "EU" he is a rabble-rouser for the Telegraph's near-demented, sclerotic has-been readership.

And as for Brexit being a symptom etc, etc, the gutter press (also right-wing) has been full of insinuations about Nigel Farage (the begetter of Brexit) suggesting that he might be a stranger to "religious beliefs, marriage and family values" and all that sort of thing.

So it is almost like a package deal. With the return of one way of thinking, other associated values will also return.

I see. Get out of the EU and we shall all become responsible, god-fearing married couples again.

That perhaps is his prediction and hope. I don't blame him for that hope, frankly.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!

[Aruntraveller]

At the risk of being accused of Godwinism.

So all the advances in Germany prior to the rise of Mr Hitler were incorporated into his philosophy. I don't think so.

It would be nice to think that governments and people behaved as reasonably as you seem to think they do - but they don't.

Certainly in Mr Trump's case he is clearly setting out to wipe out 'liberal' gains - and please remember that in most cases liberal gains actually means just treating human beings with dignity and respect.

Similarly only a fool would not now recognize the racism that drove some people to vote for Brexit. We have to guard against that becoming common currency in our national dialogue - otherwise life will get much worse for many UK citizens.

[Sriram]

Well...we can't get away from the fact that a wave of conservatism is sweeping across the world.  It has happened in India, in Britain, in the US and perhaps will happen in France, Germany, Netherlands etc.

It is not necessary that the same mix of conservatism and liberalism will evolve in all societies. The mix will obviously be different in different societies. What sort of mix arises in the UK will depend on you guys.

[Aruntraveller]

Well...we can't get away from the fact that a wave of conservatism is sweeping across the world.  It has happened in India, in Britain, in the US and perhaps will happen in France, Germany, Netherlands etc.

It is not necessary that the same mix of conservatism and liberalism will evolve in all societies. The mix will obviously be different in different societies. What sort of mix arises in the UK will depend on you guys.

Common argument put forward - but it didn't actually happen in the US (remember Hilary CLinton got nearly 3 million more votes than Trump) Trump's victory was due to the flawed nature of their electoral college.

And even here the Brexit vote was essentially a 50/50 split hardly 'Conservatism sweeping across the world' - and that's leaving aside the problem that I don't think it is as simple an equation as Brexit = Conservatism.

[floo]

I have read so many crazy things in the last few months, re Brexit, but this one most rate amongst one of the craziest!

[Udayana]

Anyway, just because the leavers won the referendum doesn't mean the the UK is any more conservative than it was before the vote. The result would have been pretty much the same since 1979, that is why a referendum was not held until now - for some reason Cameron thought he would win. A few racists feel they have been let out of their boxes and Labour are in disarray - quite normal really, at least up to now.

This idea of some sort of conservative and liberal mix evolving smacks of the pseudoscience of dialectics - ie. thoroughly debunked.

[Outrider]

So much wrong in one place - he cites the "endless river of human misery unleashed by the collapse of the nuclear family since the 1970s", and goes on to show that only Scandinavia and Northern Europe have lower marriage rates than us. Given that these regions are typically healthier, happier and have better average outcomes for their children than we do, his implied link between marriage and the 'endless river of human misery' is fairly easily debunked, or at the very least massively called into question.

As to the rise/return of conservatism... well, equally, those Scandinavian countries with their happy people and well-educated, well-balanced children are also rated amongst the most liberal nations... Hmmm.

O.

[Bubbles]

How does that work then?

There are some old values I think are better off left behind, like the prejudice towards the divorced, single mothers, and people that chose not to get married at all,that existed before we joined the EU.

Let's not go back to that 

As a remainer, who will shortly have been happily married for 33years, it looks a crazy article.

 

[jeremyp]

Apparently he was a high court judge. With reasoning like that displayed in the article, I would fear very much for the quality of justice that the people appearing before him received.

[Dicky Underpants]

It wilk also herald the return of The Black and White Minstrel Show


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/06/brexit-opportunity-reverse-tragic-decline-marriage-britain/

"Brexit will, over time, prove good for family stability and marriage rates."

Well, the Home Office is already making sure that families are likely to be disrupted if the husband and wife are of differing nationalities, only one of which is British.
It seems that this question of the legitimate residency of European nationals (when they have been married to English people for a long time) has only just surfaced as a significant issue to be thrashed out in the Lords. Yet already the faceless beaurocrats in the Home Office are issuing positively fascists directives, and indicating that even some people who have been married and living here for 25 years should start making preparations to pack their bags (I know of one case involving a Dutch woman who was rash enough to make enquiries). Even supposing that the European half of such marriages might concede to such an outrageous directive, this does not mean that the British half of the relationship would.
The matter was raised on BBC Question Time last week, focussing on the 65 page document that Europeans have to fill out to validate their residency here (a document that requires a lawyer in attendance to make any bloody sense of it). The government spokeswoman* - obviously unaware of the ramifications of this almost fascist sounding directive - said that all foreign nationals have to provide substantive information of their legitimacy of residence in this way, in order to protect out national security. This is quite untrue - the document in question only applies to people of European origin. A Chinese person resident here for 25 years wouldn't have to bother in the slightest. It would be a farce, but the overtones are sinister. Who gave the directive to the Home Office to jump the gun in this way when the full details of Brexit have not even been finalised?

*Liz Truss - best known for her sterling work in opening up "Pork markets" in Beijing.

[Robbie]

I don't consider the decline in formal marriage to be tragic. It's up to the couple concerned, what difference does it make whether they marry or not nowadays? I can't see any, unlike in the past when there was less security for women and children. Now that doesn't apply.

One difference is not having to pay court fees for divorce when they break up.

However, I do get the point the writer is trying to make. We may be harking back to more traditional times. I sincerely hope not but it's possible.