The god of suffering

[SteveH]

Is it really too much to ask of Floo that she refer to God as he (or she, if she prefers) rather than "it"? Such gratuitous attempts to offend are a bit adolescent for a mature woman.

[Shaker]

Is it really too much to ask of Floo that she refer to God as he (or she, if she prefers) rather than "it"? Such gratuitous attempts to offend are a bit adolescent for a mature woman.

Why?

How do you know that it's an attempt to offend, given that - to me at any rate - the idea of gods in itself is absurd but the idea of gods with human gender is equally so. 'It' seems exactly right. A table doesn't have gender either; we also refer to tables as it, not he or she. The idea of a god not only with a gender but a male one at that, naturally, given who did the writing of this tripe, is obsolescent bollocks.

[floo]

As we have no idea should god exist if it is male, female or genderless, it is reasonable to refer to it as IT.

Steve H gets more upset if I happen to agree with something he says, so he can't actually have a go at me. I am not intending to offend anyone, unlike him, whose attempts to offend me are failing. I reckon he has returned to R&E as he missed being b*tchy to me now I have left the other forum on which we both posted!

[SteveH]

How about avoiding pronouns altogether, and writing "God" (or "god", if you insist) each time?
Bitchy? Moi?

[floo]

How about avoiding pronouns altogether, and writing "God" (or "god", if you insist) each time?
Bitchy? Moi?

I will continue to refer to god as it. If you find it offensive I suggest you ignore my posts.

[wigginhall]

You could compromise and call it the artist formerly known as God.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SteveH,

The traditional defences of God in the face of suffering don't impress me. I think we have to let go of at least one of the three omnis: potent, scient and benevolent. The Bible explicitly says that God is love. It nowhere says that God is power. Therefore, I think we can say that, while God is very powerful, God is not all-powerful.

Or rather, “we” can say that that’s what the Bible implies on the matter. You have all your work ahead of you still to demonstrate this "God" objectively.
 

One traditional defence of God is human free-will, but that hardly explains natural evil. However, if we argue that all of creation has something analogous to free-will; that matter is intransigent stuff by its very nature and even God can't do with it exactly as God likes; we may be getting somewhere.

How would you propose to argue that a god that can create an entire universe can’t also control everything about that universe? Are you suggesting a sort of Frankenstein’s monster effect?

How if God created the universe, including the natural laws, in such a way that evolution would eventually lead to us, or at any rate to intelligent free agents, but couldn't stop things like plague, cancer and various genetic horrors from happening, but decided that the good of creating us outweighed the unavoidable suffering?

Well, a semi-competent god is one approach I suppose though, as I understand it, that would fly pretty much in the face of any stripe of Christian orthodoxy.

And for whom would that be “good” in any case? Good for a voyeuristic god with a ringside seat at the suffering he’d unleashed, or good for us on a sort of cost/benefit basis? If the latter, surely a less self aware creature with a good sense of enjoyment but no sense of death or suffering would have been a more “loving” creation wouldn’t it?   
 

The alternative, after all, would be non-existance.

As we’d not be there to experience it though, so what?

[Enki]

You could compromise and call it the artist formerly known as God.

Hmm! That would suggest that God had copyright problems...perhaps something to do with Satan being in control, somewhere along the line. 

[floo]

Hmm! That would suggest that God had copyright problems...perhaps something to do with Satan being in control, somewhere along the line. 

 

[Sassy]

The traditional defences of God in the face of suffering don't impress me. I think we have to let go of at least one of the three omnis: potent, scient and benevolent. The Bible explicitly says that God is love. It nowhere says that God is power. Therefore, I think we can say that, while God is very powerful, God is not all-powerful. One traditional defence of God is human free-will, but that hardly explains natural evil. However, if we argue that all of creation has something analogous to free-will; that matter is intransigent stuff by its very nature and even God can't do with it exactly as God likes; we may be getting somewhere. How if God created the universe, including the natural laws, in such a way that evolution would eventually lead to us, or at any rate to intelligent free agents, but couldn't stop things like plague, cancer and various genetic horrors from happening, but decided that the good of creating us outweighed the unavoidable suffering? The alternative, after all, would be non-existance.

33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.


Omnipresent:-

Psalm 139: 7-12 Jeremiah 23:23-24

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

All Powerful Omnipotent.  Genesis 17:1; Job 42:1-2; Jeremiah 32:17.

17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
17 Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Definitely ALL-POWERFUL

Omniscient  Knows all things.

Psalm 139:1-6; Hebrews 4:12-13

God above Space and Time eternal and unchanging.

Isaiah 44:6 ,alachi 3:6 James 1:17.

So the bible does tell us God is powerful.

[Sassy]

Luke 1:37King James Version (KJV)

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

The truth cannot be escaped. God is all powerful and there is nothing he cannot do.

[Sebastian Toe]

Luke 1:37King James Version (KJV)

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

The truth cannot be escaped. God is all powerful and there is nothing he cannot do.

Can he create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift?

[Robbie]

http://crossexamined.org/can-god-create-a-rock-so-heavy-that-he-cannot-lift-it/

[floo]

Luke 1:37King James Version (KJV)

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

The truth cannot be escaped. God is all powerful and there is nothing he cannot do.

An ASSERTION with no evidence to support it!

[Sebastian Toe]

http://crossexamined.org/can-god-create-a-rock-so-heavy-that-he-cannot-lift-it/

So Sassy over egged the assertion then?
There are things that god can not do.

[Nearly Sane]

So Sassy over egged the assertion then?
There are things that god can not do.

I think the link is fairly self explanatory - anything that can be done this omnipotent god can do. The stone he couldn't lift is a logical paradox based around the concept of ignoring logic in the first place.

[ippy]

33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.


Omnipresent:-

Psalm 139: 7-12 Jeremiah 23:23-24

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

All Powerful Omnipotent.  Genesis 17:1; Job 42:1-2; Jeremiah 32:17.

17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
17 Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Definitely ALL-POWERFUL

Omniscient  Knows all things.

Psalm 139:1-6; Hebrews 4:12-13

God above Space and Time eternal and unchanging.

Isaiah 44:6 ,alachi 3:6 James 1:17.

So the bible does tell us God is powerful.

That lot's O K Sass but until you can establish it as evidence based, it's just another load of fictional ramblings, especially the mythical, magical and superstition based parts thereof.

ippy   

[Sebastian Toe]

I think the link is fairly self explanatory - anything that can be done this omnipotent god can do. The stone he couldn't lift is a logical paradox based around the concept of ignoring logic in the first place.

Can he tell a lie ie sin? If he really really wanted to?

[SteveH]

33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.


Omnipresent:-

Psalm 139: 7-12 Jeremiah 23:23-24

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

All Powerful Omnipotent.  Genesis 17:1; Job 42:1-2; Jeremiah 32:17.

17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
17 Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Definitely ALL-POWERFUL

Omniscient  Knows all things.

Psalm 139:1-6; Hebrews 4:12-13

God above Space and Time eternal and unchanging.

Isaiah 44:6 ,alachi 3:6 James 1:17.

So the bible does tell us God is powerful.

There's not much point in quoting the Bible to people who don't believe in its complete infallibility.

[Dicky Underpants]

There's not much point in quoting the Bible to people who don't believe in its complete infallibility.

Well, if Sass had taken that on board, it would certainly have freed up quite a bit of her time. It probably wouldn't have freed up much of other posters' time, since I imagine that when Sass delivers one of her interminable screeds and/or quotes, they just switch off.

Ah, but isn't it all the grand tradition of the "Christian Witness" (to give her the benefit of the doubt)?