Dorothy Fields

[Nearly Sane]

In part because of a discusion of the How Long thread about favourite lyricists, I thought I would post a link about the writer of many of my favourite lyrics and my all time favourite lyric. She doesn't seem to me to get nearly as much attention as she should.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Fields

[Humph Warden Bennett]

This is quite often the case with lyricists, another example being that Hal David is far less well known than is Burt Bacharach.

[Nearly Sane]

This is quite often the case with lyricists, another example being that Hal David is far less well known than is Burt Bacharach.

That's an interesting point and yet Hart is well known. I suppose Fields worked with a lot of music writers so doesn't the sort of 'Rodgers and Hart' and Rodgers and Hammerstein' linking so clear but then Bacharach and David are so closely associated.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

If one looks at Opera, Gilbert & Sullivan's names are always together, but Offenbach's librettists are obscure. Mozart's librettist, Da Ponte is reasonably well known among those who like that kind of thing.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, again good points, and thinking about it so many of the vaunted lyricists that Fields wrote at the time with were composing as well, e.g. Porter and Berlin. Of George and Ira Gershwin, George is far better known. I suppose given he's the performer John/Taupin will always be John for mist people though Bernie Taupin is better known that most lyricists.


And in Fields case her 'major' partner Kern and she didn't produce any film musicals in the same way as Rodgers and Hammerstein, in part because of timing. Her biggest film musical in public perception is probably Sweet Charity and people tend not to know the composer for that, Cy Coleman.  It seems then that the outlier in many ways is Hart.

[Harrowby Hall]

Dorothy Fields wrote lyrics for some of Jerome Kern's finest songs. She also co-wrote the book for Annie Get Your Gun.

Another lyricist everyone knows is Stephen Sondheim for West Side Story.  Irving Berlin and Cole Porter wrote both lyrics and music.

Richard Rodgers was fortunate with his lyricists, Lorenz Hart was probably the most talented lyricist of them all - he did magic with some of his witty verbal dexterity which he produced after Rodgers had written a melody. Oscar Hammerstein was not a natural lyricist - more a folk poet. He found it extremely difficult to fit a lyric to a tune and requested of Richard Rodgers that he wait until the words were available before writing a melody. It irked him sometimes when he had spent days perfecting a lyric that Rodgers could produce a totally appropriate melody in minutes.

However, Hammerstein was an innovator: he did not just want songs to entertain audiences, he wanted songs (and music and dance) to be part of the story telling. At the end of each song in a R&H musical play, the audience knows more about the characters and the plot than it did beforehand. And Hammerstein's protegy - almost adopted son - was Stephen Sondheim.

Four homosexual, Jewish Americans go into a room together  - what comes out?   .....   West Side Story

[Nearly Sane]

Another interesting post, thanks you HH, I am enjoying the thread. Sondheim is an interesting one. Yes, as you point out he wrote the lyrics to West Side Story but had he stayed a lyricist as opposed to a lyricist composer then would he be as well known?


I get your point about Hart, perhaps only Porter approaches him for wit but both Porter and Rodgers and Hart produced musicals filled with clever songs rather than great musicals. Arguably Porter only hits a great musical with Kiss Me, Kate, and R&Hart with Pal Joey.


And again you are right about Hammerstein, maybe a second tier lyricist but his vision of the musical is central to its development.


In terms of the composers, I know anyone with an interest will know Kern but I suspect that many who know of Gershwin or Rodgers might not know of him.

[Aruntraveller]

Interesting thread. Apart from the aforementioned teams is the one of  Kander & Ebb responsible for the later musicals Cabaret & Chicago amongst others.

Their approach appears to have been collaborative (unusually I think) with actors, notably Joel Grey, having significant input into the way the characters were conceived.

[Nearly Sane]

My favourite musical is Guys and Dolls, music and lyrics by Frank Loesser, and yet his name is comparatively little known, I think?


Incidentally not long after I married, my wife was away with work for a number of weeks, and a friend, Douglas and I arranged to go and see a touring production of Guys and Dolls and have a meal afterwards. The mother in law was a bit confused by this and said to my wife 'You know what they say about men who like musicals?' To which the reply was 'That they're gay, yes, Douglas is.' Which left m-i-l even more confused.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course, one of the great lyricists and who was involved in the development of the musical to a great degree working with Kern was P G Wodehouse, and unless you are a big Wodehouse fan, or a big musicals fan, it seems to be a surprise when it is mentioned.

[Nearly Sane]

For those fans of musicals, can I recommend Mark Steyn's Broadway Babes Say Goodnight as an utter delight? Can't stand his politics but the boy can write.

[Harrowby Hall]

Another major innovation of Oscar Hammerstein was to build his play around social or moral issues.

The most common assumption about the American musical comedy was that it developed from the European (usually Viennese) operetta tradition. Most (certainly not all) musicals of the early 20th century were escapist entertainments, designed to divert and titivate. Hammerstein, I think, was influenced as much by Italian verismo as by operetta. I think that R&H owes much to Puccini and to Bizet (OK, not Italian) as it does to earlier Broadway shows.

South Pacific is as much about racism as it is about the wartime diversions of servicemen, and Carousel is about spousal abuse and the responsibilities of parenthood. Hammerstein had already visited racial problems in Show Boat for which he provided Jerome Kern with most of the lyrics.For all but one of his musical plays with Richard Rodgers he also provided the book, and so was completely in charge of the narrative. The only one for which he did not write the book was The Sound of Music, but he was terminally ill. And that was about the anschluss with Austria!

Oscar Hammerstein moved on from the musical comedy to the musical play, using popular melody to underline serious subject matter. Possibly the most important theatrical development of the 20th Century. My guess is that the outstanding examples of the genre will take their place in the great opera houses of the world within the next fifty years or so.

[Nearly Sane]

I wouldn't be surprised if you are right, HH, but I think the operafication of musicals usually results in a piece of bad opera and bad musical. I watched the prom of Oklahoma and the vast majority of performances while well sung had insufficient acting or understanding of the lyrics. It had the emotional connection of a sonata by Boris Johnson.

[Harrowby Hall]

Forgive me, NS.

I think that we have left Dorothy Fields behind.


You may find the following of interest:

http://www.thepeaches.com/music/composers/OscarOnJerome.html

[Aruntraveller]

I wouldn't be surprised if you are right, HH, but I think the operafication of musicals usually results in a piece of bad opera and bad musical. I watched the prom of Oklahoma and the vast majority of performances while well sung had insufficient acting or understanding of the lyrics. It had the emotional connection of a sonata by Boris Johnson.

I'd echo that sentiment - I caught some opera singer absolutely ruining a song from Oklahoma. It was like McCartney's effort at writing classical music, well-intentioned, worthy even - but ultimately wrong.

[Harrowby Hall]

I wouldn't be surprised if you are right, HH, but I think the operafication of musicals usually results in a piece of bad opera and bad musical. I watched the prom of Oklahoma and the vast majority of performances while well sung had insufficient acting or understanding of the lyrics. It had the emotional connection of a sonata by Boris Johnson.

The Proms performance was not a theatrical production. It did not take place in a theatre. It was essentially a project of an excellent main-stream orchestral conductor, John Wilson, to bring music for which he has great admiration to an extended audience. He has previously done similar Proms performances of My Fair Lady and Kiss Me, Kate.

Opera house productions of musical plays will almost certainly be idiomatic.

I'd echo that sentiment - I caught some opera singer absolutely ruining a song from Oklahoma.

So a single swallow a summer makes? The part of Emile de Becque in South Pacific was specifically written for the voice of a particular opera singer, Ezio Pinza. There have been many "opera singers" - Thomas Allen, Kiri Te Kanawa, Lesley Garrett spring to mind - who have been performing music theatre songs very successfully for many years.

And as I have just suggested, the productions will be idiomatic. Just because they take place in an opera house doesn't mean they will be subjected to "operafication".

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Another major innovation of Oscar Hammerstein was to build his play around social or moral issues.

The most common assumption about the American musical comedy was that it developed from the European (usually Viennese) operetta tradition. Most (certainly not all) musicals of the early 20th century were escapist entertainments, designed to divert and titivate. Hammerstein, I think, was influenced as much by Italian verismo as by operetta. I think that R&H owes much to Puccini and to Bizet (OK, not Italian) as it does to earlier Broadway shows.

South Pacific is as much about racism as it is about the wartime diversions of servicemen, and Carousel is about spousal abuse and the responsibilities of parenthood. Hammerstein had already visited racial problems in Show Boat for which he provided Jerome Kern with most of the lyrics.For all but one of his musical plays with Richard Rodgers he also provided the book, and so was completely in charge of the narrative. The only one for which he did not write the book was The Sound of Music, but he was terminally ill. And that was about the anschluss with Austria!

Oscar Hammerstein moved on from the musical comedy to the musical play, using popular melody to underline serious subject matter. Possibly the most important theatrical development of the 20th Century. My guess is that the outstanding examples of the genre will take their place in the great opera houses of the world within the next fifty years or so.

FTR Richard Rodgers did occasionally write some lyrics himself.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I'd echo that sentiment - I caught some opera singer absolutely ruining a song from Oklahoma. It was like McCartney's effort at writing classical music, well-intentioned, worthy even - but ultimately wrong.

Was that the same programme where Kiri Ti Kanawa made a mess of a Celine Dion ballard?

[Nearly Sane]

The Proms performance was not a theatrical production. It did not take place in a theatre. It was essentially a project of an excellent main-stream orchestral conductor, John Wilson, to bring music for which he has great admiration to an extended audience. He has previously done similar Proms performances of My Fair Lady and Kiss Me, Kate.

Opera house productions of musical plays will almost certainly be idiomatic.


So a single swallow a summer makes? The part of Emile de Becque in South Pacific was specifically written for the voice of a particular opera singer, Ezio Pinza. There have been many "opera singers" - Thomas Allen, Kiri Te Kanawa, Lesley Garrett spring to mind - who have been performing music theatre songs very successfully for many years.

And as I have just suggested, the productions will be idiomatic. Just because they take place in an opera house doesn't mean they will be subjected to "operafication".

Mmm, I agree some opera  singers can do musicals as sings, though I would cite Dawn Upshaw as better than your examples at this. Indeed one of my issues with the operafication (which is a perfectly good neologism so doesn't need quotes) relates back to the West Side Story recording with Kiri to Kanawa. Given that was done by Bernstein, you would expect it to stand up but it's back in BoJo sonataland.

Maybe the issus is that opera in the main particularly in this country is so far from idiomatic.

[Harrowby Hall]

Dawn Upshaw did a CD of Rodgers and Hart songs about 20 years ago. It was very good, but the songs were all cut-down cocktail bar arrangements. A much better disc appeared at about the same time with Frederica von Stade (and the LSO under John McGlinn) playing the original theatrical versions of many very well known songs. Many of the songs have been covered by many great vocalists - but these were as R&H intended them to be heard, with the original orchestrations of Hans Spialek and others.

The disc includes the original version of Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered - a song about sexual obsession whose lyric was watered down for general consumption - with Hans Spialek's sardonic orchestration.

[Nearly Sane]

Just to say thank you for that, HH, I will seek out that 'disc' (note put into quotes to denote the passing of media as it pribably won't be a disc i seek it out on).

One of my favourite stories about such change was sometime ago when a bloke was at a party. He was a friend of the father, and he was introduced to one of the children and told "You have something in common - Dark Side of the Moon is your favourite album" and they started a conversation about it, and he said "I love the bit on side 2 where...", only to be interrupted with the question "What's side 2?"

[Nearly Sane]

Following on from some of the comments, I happened on the article below. I wouldn't hsve said it was a liberal elite thing to disparage musicals?


https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2017/dominic-cooke-liberal-intelligentsia-snobs-musicals/