Ted Heath - victim or rapist

[jeremyp]

I recall hearing of an incident (most likely, though, to be apocryphal) of an accused man (possibly for murder) giving the judge a secret masonic gesture and receiving a reply stating that that would not help him here.

I have relatives who are Free Masons. Using Masonic connections  in that way is, according to them, strictly prohibited. I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but the Masons I know would have had him expelled.

I am wary of stories of the believed protection of Freemasonry in such circumstances. If only because a non-masonic policeman, prosecutor, judge - whatever - could readily construct a charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice. I wonder if the assailant in Owlswing's case wasn't merely using it as a frightener, and was not actually a member of the masons?

It goes further than the legal system. You're also not supposed to use Masonic connections to procure an advantage in business either. I think a lot of the stories you hear about the Masons are made up.

[Shaker]

... apart from the one about Jack the Ripper being a Mason, which is 100% true.

[jeremyp]

Why is everyone calling the Roman Catholic Church the Catholic Church.
The Church of England and Rome are CHRISTIAN churches. Catholic is a word which means 'universal' everywhere.
Hence both Churches are Catholic and both Christian.

In your head, just pretend that everywhere I write "Catholic" by itself, I have actually written "Roman Catholic". By the way, the Roman Catholic Church would not describe the C of E as catholic.

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church and have no interest in it's clergy who stand accused of abuse getting off with anything.

Good for you. However, your denial is not really necessary, it never occurred to me that you did approve of the Roman Catholic Church's actions.

[jeremyp]

Maybe the word "closure" should be substituted foir the word "justice" in these cases?

Yes. I think so.

[Owlswing]

I have relatives who are Free Masons. Using Masonic connections  in that way is, according to them, strictly prohibited. I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but the Masons I know would have had him expelled.

It goes further than the legal system. You're also not supposed to use Masonic connections to procure an advantage in business either. I think a lot of the stories you hear about the Masons are made up.

I agree totally with your summation of the situation - but I would ask this - if a person in authority over an under-age child, a child who had been subjected to a multiple rape by that person in authority, told the child that the Brotherhood would protect the perpetrator what are the chances of the victim knowing that the truth was otherwise.

[jeremyp]

I agree totally with your summation of the situation - but I would ask this - if a person in authority over an under-age child, a child who had been subjected to a multiple rape by that person in authority, told the child that the Brotherhood would protect the perpetrator what are the chances of the victim knowing that the truth was otherwise.

Pretty much zero I think.

I can't comment about what Freemasonry was like in the past, only what it is like today. Also, even if a freemason pedophile would not use his position to escape justice, there's nothing to stop him from telling the victim otherwise and relying on the popular perception of the Freemasons to keep the victim quiet.

By the way, freemasonry is a lot more open than it used to be. They have events that are open to guests and if you ask one, they'll probably be glad to show you round their temple. Also, there's a whole masonic order for women.

[Owlswing]

Pretty much zero I think.

I can't comment about what Freemasonry was like in the past, only what it is like today. Also, even if a freemason pedophile would not use his position to escape justice, there's nothing to stop him from telling the victim otherwise and relying on the popular perception of the Freemasons to keep the victim quiet.

By the way, freemasonry is a lot more open than it used to be. They have events that are open to guests and if you ask one, they'll probably be glad to show you round their temple. Also, there's a whole masonic order for women.

The incident that I was referring to happened about fifty-five/sixty years ago - there or thereabouts.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church and have no interest in it's clergy who stand accused of abuse getting off with anything.

Nor am I a member of the RCC but that doesn't stop me being concerned about justice for the victims. The notion that you are only interested in crimes where the accused is 'a bit like you' is bizarre.

[Sebastian Toe]

At first I was drawn in with the allegations.  Personally, I believe the amount of people accused, there was no way it would have been contained, people had to be turning blind eyes.

Is there a tipping point at which an event becomes too big to be viable to contain?
What would that number of people involved be, roughly, do you think?

[floo]

A lowlife creep called Richard Hillgrove of a PR firm, defended Harvey Weinstein on the Victoria Derbyshire show this morning. He said there was nothing criminal about Weinstein's behaviour, as it was par for the course in Hollywood!

[jeremyp]

A lowlife creep called Richard Hillgrove of a PR firm, defended Harvey Weinstein on the Victoria Derbyshire show this morning. He said there was nothing criminal about Weinstein's behaviour, as it was par for the course in Hollywood!

He's been accused of rape. We'll see how that goes and then talk about who's a criminal.

Anyway, the "what is legal" line and the "what makes you an arsehole" line are not the same thing.

[floo]

He's been accused of rape. We'll see how that goes and then talk about who's a criminal.

Anyway, the "what is legal" line and the "what makes you an arsehole" line are not the same thing.

Sexual harassment isn't legal is it?

[Shaker]

Sexual harassment isn't legal is it?

In some circumstances it's difficult to prove.

A man acts in such a way that makes a woman feel sufficiently uncomfortable to feel sexually harrassed, but doesn't do anything explicitly stated as illegal. No one denies that that's how she feels (and shouldn't have to feel that way), but that's going to end up as a he-said-she-said tournament. Tricky. Hence JP's comment: "The "what is legal" line and the "what makes you an arsehole" line are not the same thing."

Although laws surrounding sexual harassment exist, they generally do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or minor isolated incidents — that is, they do not impose a "general civility code" [...] The legal and social understanding of sexual harassment [...] varies by culture.

I think it's close to impossible for any written law(s) to include every possible instance of where someone feels harassed in a sexual manner. People are too variable.

[jeremyp]

Sexual harassment isn't legal is it?

You might have misunderstood what I meant. I'm not defending this Richard Hillgrove, I'm pointing out that, at least some of, the accusations are of rape. I think it is incredible that anybody would claim that nothing Weinstein did was illegal. And yes, I'm sure some forms of sexual harassment are illegal in the States.

My second point was that "he did nothing illegal" isn't really much of a defence. Whether what he did was illegal or not, he's still an arsehole.

[Shaker]

My second point was that "he did nothing illegal" isn't really much of a defence. Whether what he did was illegal or not, he's still an arsehole.

Which alas has never been illegal.

[jeremyp]

Which alas has never been illegal.

If it was illegal, I think most of us would have seen the inside of a prison cell at some point in our lives.

[SteveH]

I had no time for heath as a Tory, but most of these accusations have been dismissed as nonsense, and I expect that the rest will be in time. It is worth noting that the first person to accuse heath of sexual assault was David Icke in the late 90s, when heath was still alive. He also accused heath of being a 12-foot long shape-shifting lizard, which is probably why Heath decided not to sue for slander: it would have been taking Icke seriously. (Ickis is obviously mentally ill, and deserves sympathy rather than riducule, but he should not be taken seriously on his own terms.)

[Robbie]

I agree with you Pease. People are all too ready to jump on bandwagon.

[Sassy]

Maybe the word "closure" should be substituted foir the word "justice" in these cases?

That is true Owlswing,

There is no closure for anyone and it is sad that those hurting have no Justice.

[Sassy]

Rubbish!

You are female and know even less than I do, a male, about the inner workings of Freemasonry a chauvenistic male-on!y SECRET organisation!

My Father-in-law a mason. Have repaired his Apron on a couple of occasions.  As for being a female. Their are now female lodges
in the masonic lodges. But when they started out they could only have one female per occupation unlike the men who had several members of any line of work.

If you do know anything about their inner-workings someone has broken a sacred oath taken at initiation.

Females have worked within the male lodges for many years.  My grandmother and my aunt are such females. Neither broke
any rules. But there are known masons of old who have spoke out about the order but I am not sure about the grand order.

Please pull your "I-know-everything" head in on this one!

I have some knowledge and no one is " I-Know-Everything" but what I speak about comes from personal experience
and much studying through internet exposure and even news on tv.

They have ceremony that is true for induction into the order. Shown on TV what happens as they are lead in blind-folded and also have to swear an oath of allegiance and secrecy. Secret handshakes etc. But in truth there is alot once hidden now known because people who left revealed what they should not and it became public knowledge.

[Sassy]

It's partly the realization of how many abuse victims were historically abused and told to shut up.   I think some of Savile's victims had this done, and many victims of priests and teachers.   So the various authorities are trying to reverse this trend, by taking accusations seriously.  I think it's OK, as long as it's done equally, I mean, Fred the plumber will be investigated just as much as Lord Unzipmyfly.

Hi Wigs,

I believe there would have to have been an enormous cover up for so much to have been allowed to go on.
My own parents would have over-turned every stone to get anyone responsible for hurting one of us, had it been the case.
I find it very difficult to understand what other adults were doing to allow such a wide scale of harm to children to go on and not speaking out. 

Whether celebrity, priest or joe bloggs, all should be persued with the same  vigorous action to bring them to justice.
It seems so vast for them to have got away with it so long. WHO can be trusted?

[floo]

Hi Wigs,

I believe there would have to have been an enormous cover up for so much to have been allowed to go on.
My own parents would have over-turned every stone to get anyone responsible for hurting one of us, had it been the case.
I find it very difficult to understand what other adults were doing to allow such a wide scale of harm to children to go on and not speaking out. 

Whether celebrity, priest or joe bloggs, all should be persued with the same  vigorous action to bring them to justice.
It seems so vast for them to have got away with it so long. WHO can be trusted?

But they have got away with it, even when complaints have been made! Complaints were made about that evil turd, Saville, from as early as 1959, yet a blind eye was turned as it was convenient to do so!

[Harrowby Hall]

That is true Owlswing,

There is no closure for anyone and it is sad that those hurting have no Justice.

Just a little more pedantry from me - "justice" is a process, not an outcome. Justice is the means by which closure may be obtained. it is also a process which may lead to a totally different conclusion.

[Owlswing]

Just a little more pedantry from me - "justice" is a process, not an outcome. Justice is the means by which closure may be obtained. it is also a process which may lead to a totally different conclusion.

Yes - it might and if the accuser really was the vistim the conclusion has, at various times, been suicide or mental collapse.