It's OK to to try and have sex with a 14 year old because Joseph and Mary...

[Owlswing]

Hi Gordon,

I remember Sid James alright.....Ha..Ha.  I agree that maybe I overdid the lighthearted father bit somewhat! 

But the statistics about underage sex have something to say....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574814/Britain-has-worst-underage-sex-rates.html   (a little dated I agree but still fairly telling)

*************

More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.

Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.

The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.

Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.

English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.

The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.

And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.

**************

Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it.  Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.

Just because it happens does not make it right!

Murder happens but it is not right!

Why? Simply because there are inmnoocent victims! Ditto with the adult/child sex scenario - the children are innocent vistims.

Just because it happened 2017 years ago in Judea between a man (supposedly) 2000 years old, a slightly younger husband  and a 14 year old girl, does not maker it right today!

Just because it happens in the remote and backward regions of some countries today does not make it right for any other country today.

Maybe you should turn your missionary zeal to stopping it in these remote and backward regions where it is deemed acceptable because it is part of the region's history before you preach to ours!

[Robbie]

Sririam:- "Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex"

That doesn't surprise me at all. I'm 57 but when I was at school there were a few who did especially if they had steady boyfriends, most of us waited until we were a bit older. A lot of underage girls & boys lack judgement but "having sex" for the first time is often viewed as a milestone.

[Maeght]

The other aspects of setting a legal age of consent are to act as a deterent (we shouldn't do this as its illegal) and to show what standards Society expects. The fact that it is difficult to police and in certain cases difficult to decide on a punishment doesn't mean that the age of consent is irrelevant.

[Gordon]

More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.

Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.

The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.

Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.

English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.

The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.

And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.

**************

As far as I'm aware girls do mature earlier that boys.

Even so, all this illustrates is that there may be some issues to be addressed as regards young people in some cases, such as education, advice or supervision (where required) to protect the vulnerable, and that some young people are sexually active earlier that others is hardly news. I'd imagine most parents guide and support their children during adolescence and well after they reach the age of consent (some would call it parental love) and it may be some young people are  capable in terms of sex and relationship choices far earlier than others and are well able to make informed choices that should be respected.

Clearly where exploitation and criminal abuse occurs it always needs to be addressed

Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it.  Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.

False dichotomy there, and hasty generalisation.

[Nearly Sane]

It would help the discussion if Sriram indicated that he understood that referring to the French proposal as regards setting an age of 13 under which all sex is regarded as being rape is not an age of consent. And indeed, that sex can be carried put physically, is not what the legal age of consent refers to.

[Sassy]

Maybe more underage girls in Britain are having sex. But what about Spain where the age of consent is 15 would they be viewed as it being higher for underage sex if the age was 15 here?  I am not sure about this thread. I think we all have our views but girls and boys should not be having sex with adults whether 16 or younger.

I get an underlying tone on this thread as if someone is trying to suggest there is a reason to allow children under 16 especially girls to have sex. But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.

I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.

[Robbie]

Hello Sassy. There have been a couple of rather unsavoury & controversial cases in France recently regarding girls as young as 11! In light of these & because so many people were understandably up in arms about it, so I read yesterday, the French have now set a lowest age of consent at 15.  Well here it is 16 but at least it is something.

You said:- But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.

I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.
...

I agree with that, especially the first para.  There will be exceptions for the second (ie someone nearly 16 with a partner of 18, if they're going out regularly & care for eachother, no point in the strong arm of the law then), but as a rule of thumb it's good.

[Maeght]

Hello Sassy. There have been a couple of rather unsavoury & controversial cases in France recently regarding girls as young as 11! In light of these & because so many people were understandably up in arms about it, so I read yesterday, the French have now set a lowest age of consent at 15.  Well here it is 16 but at least it is something.

You said:- But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.

I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.
...

I agree with that, especially the first para.  There will be exceptions for the second (ie someone nearly 16 with a partner of 18, if they're going out regularly & care for eachother, no point in the strong arm of the law then), but as a rule of thumb it's good.

I agree with what Sassy said too,. The only bit I would question is the bit about saying 'as a mother and a woman' as if is a factor. I am neither but think the same.

[Harrowby Hall]

I suspect that Sassy may have been referring to her own experiences as a growing girl and to the relationship between someone who was once a growing girl and her daughter.

In general, I agree with her.

I don't really know what it is like to be an adolescent today, I hope that sex is not demonised in the way that it was when I was young but treated in a more open, everyday manner, and that rationality is used instead of either hellfire or social derision to dissuade young people from sexual experimentation. The current legal framework was probably established a long time ago. Since then there has been a reduction in the age of menarche (not necessarily the same as first ovulation) - it is probably more productive to consider adolescent girls not as children but developing women.

I believe that young people should be encouraged to be comfortable with and within their bodies, and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.

[Rhiannon]

I agree with what Sassy said too,. The only bit I would question is the bit about saying 'as a mother and a woman' as if is a factor. I am neither but think the same.

I think Sassy is saying that her experience of motherhood informs her opinions. You have a different reason for coming to the same conclusions.

[Robbie]

Quite. You don't have to be a mother to have informed opinions. I'm sure sometimes it doesn't help at all because you would nearly always think of 'my little one', unobjectively!  Experience with people of all ages and levels does help.

HH:- I believe that young people should be encouraged to be comfortable with and within their bodies, and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.

Definitely HH. It's not always a selfish act, especially if one is in love (I resisted putting that in quotes).

[Harrowby Hall]

... and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.

Definitely HH. It's not always a selfish act, especially if one is in love (I resisted putting that in quotes).

And now you are doing just that - if not demonising at least being judgemental.

A selfish act.

What is selfish about it? Masturbation is an act which can bring about comfort, relaxation, endorphin release, peace and pleasure. It harms no one and requires no one  else to participate. It is normal and natural behaviour.

[Rhiannon]

And now you are doing just that - if not demonising at least being judgemental.

A selfish act.

What is selfish about it? Masturbation is an act which can bring about comfort, relaxation, endorphin release, peace and pleasure. It harms no one and requires no one  else to participate. It is normal and natural behaviour.

Agree, HH. I've seen masturbation described as 'dirty' before, but never selfish. Actually, it's healthy. Aside from the reasons you give, it helps to teach self acceptance and should be a part of exploring one's sexuality, discovering how one's own body responds.

We live in a world where words for genitalia are insults, the 'worst of the lot' referring to the female. Learning that one's own body isn't a source of shame, but a source of pleasure, is a part of acceptance of ourselves.

[Robbie]

I didn't intend to be judgemental HH but I can see how it came across as such. I do agree with you & in any case it's a private thing. You've gotta remember I'm a woman, we're 'wired' differently to men & the only time I ever felt like doing that (& didn't know how until I was in my twenties!), was when I really cared about someone and longed for them - & it was nice! Other than that it never crossed my mind - wasn't a 'need' as such. I couldn't care less what anyone does in private, agree it should not be demonised.

[Harrowby Hall]

Men and women wired differently? Indeed, there are genuine sex differences related to neural development but these are frequently not as great as people may think - usually more like two normal distributions portrayed on the same graph but with slightly different means and with male values showing more variability than female values. I recall being told, in undergraduate neurophysiology classes that the female corpus callosum (the band of neural tissue connecting the two hemispheres of the brain) contains a greater number of neural pathways than the male equivalent. This is now considered to be untrue - the result of some measurement artifact.

I suspect that cultural rather than physiological reasons were very important in determining attitudes to masturbation. That it was - as Rhiannon says - "dirty" and small children were scolded for touching themselves "inappropriately". There were cultural attitudes placing a high value on virginity. There were myths associating masturbation with physical and mental defects - even going so far as to suggest that its practice would reduce life expectancy. The christian religion sought to associate sexual activity with shame and guilt.

And John Harvey Kellogg advocated circumcision for boys and the application of phenol to the clitoris in girls as a means of combating the "solitary vice" ... and developed the corn flake as a food which would not provide energy which could be wasted in sexual activity.

[Robbie]

HH:-And John Harvey Kellogg advocated circumcision for boys and the application of phenol to the clitoris in girls as a means of combating the "solitary vice" ... and developed the corn flake as a food which would not provide energy which could be wasted in sexual activity.

I remember you talking about that once before and quite recently I've read something in which Kellogg cropped up. It's horrifying. Makes me wince when I think about carbolic......
I wonder about Kellogg himself, did he not have normal responses.  Oh well that was then, we've moved on thank heavens.

When I was a child & teenager no-one taught me genitalia or sex was dirty or anything like that, I'm sure if they had I'd have worried about it & probably wanted to experiment before I was ready- before even feeling anything - just to find out for myself what it was about. I'm extremely glad not to have grown up in times when such subjects were taboo.

[Rhiannon]

We don’t live in an age of self acceptance now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-40443922/why-i-wanted-vagina-surgery-as-a-teenager

[Robbie]

I've read about girls having or wanting labial reduction and such like. Seems such a shame not to accept or like the normal shape & feel of that part of them.

(For some reason I've just thought I must re-read the Vagina Monologues.)

[floo]

We don’t live in an age of self acceptance now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-40443922/why-i-wanted-vagina-surgery-as-a-teenager

Unless there is a medical problem this surgery should never be performed on a child.

[Robbie]

Ever since I read what was in that link, I've had pop up ads about vaginal surgery (other things too, like Bitcoin which I first discovered on an R&E thread).

A couple of years ago I saw a programme featuring a sex education person from (I think) the Netherlands, who talked to British school children (12-16ish) about vaginas, showing pics of what they looked like and saying, "This is what it is and it's fine". All the girls who were present were grateful for that because they had little idea! Certainly a worthwhile exercise.

She talked about many other things - I was impressed - but maybe for another thread.