Corbyn accused of anti-semitism for pronouncing a Jewish name correctly.

[Walter]

Jezza
It most certainly was a classic ad Hom, a very useful tool in many cicumstances .
I used it here because I don't like Baddiel and I like to lob in a Granade occasionally to liven things up .

You're welcome .

[Udayana]

Jezza
It most certainly was a classic ad Hom, a very useful tool in many cicumstances .
I used it here because I don't like Baddiel and I like to lob in a Granade occasionally to liven things up .

You're welcome .

You must mean grenadine - always good with tequila and oj ...

[Walter]

You must mean grenadine - always good with tequila and oj ...

thanks, don't mind if I do 👍

Auto correct isn't always 😤

[Udayana]

Epstein: epsteen, epstine, epshteen or epshtine ?

Weinstein: winestine, weensteen, winesteen, weenstine, wineshtine, weenshteen, wineshteen, weenshtine, 
                  vinestine, veensteen, vinesteen, veenstine, vineshtine, veenshteen, vineshteen, veenshtine

Einstein: inestine or ineshtine - definitely not eenstine or inesteen etc.

Frankenstein: frankenstine or frankenshtine - definitely not frankensteen ...

Think e before i implies ay sound, i before e implies ee .. but itself doesn't work for "implies".

Given up now...

[ProfessorDavey]

It's also standard German pronunciation.   Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein".   What a fuss over nothing.

This particular issue may indeed be a fuss over nothing. However I don't think we should underestimate the significance of names, their pronunciation and their spelling etc within the Jewish cultural psyche. Don't forget that thousands of Jews felt the need to anglicise or even completely change their names to feel accepted as immigrants to the UK and USA when fleeing persecution in the 30s and earlier. Effectively this was a process of 'hiding' their jewishness as doors would close were it clear that they were indeed jewish. And the need to do this is inextricably linked to the persecution they were fleeing in the first place.

So don't underestimate the cultural importance of names.

[jeremyp]

Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.

E before I in German is usually pronounced to rhyme with wine. I before e is usually pronounced to rhyme with ween. However, Jeffrey Epstein was an American. I guess he could pronounce his name in whatever way he liked.

Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman.

It's pronounced Frankensteen

[Udayana]

E before I in German is usually pronounced to rhyme with wine. I before e is usually pronounced to rhyme with ween. However, Jeffrey Epstein was an American. I guess he could pronounce his name in whatever way he liked.
It's pronounced Frankensteen

Can't get to the link ... but isn't that in contradiction to your rule? What ethnic background did Shelly give him?

[Robbie]

Watching and listening to Jo Swinson on BBC1 atm, she firmly believes Corbyn has done little to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party. She hasn't actually said she thinks Jeremy C is antisemitic. I've heard others say same, the rumour must have started somewhere. I can't quite believe it, someone in the audience said that Corbyn been fighting antisemitism for more years than she has been on the earth & I would like to believe that because the idea of that sort of prejudice in a Labour leader doesn't sit well with me - but...why is this criticism so often aimed at him & the party?

I agree that the pronunciation of Epstein's name was nothing more than JeremyC trying to say it correctly, not an indication of anything sinister.

Oh BJ is coming on now. Wish I'd seen earlier part of programme, when I switched on Nicola Sturgeon (whom I quite admire) was just walking off the podium to the sound of the audience's applause. Not that that means owt, they're clapping everyone.

[Udayana]

Watched Corbyn and Sturgeon .. will watch the rest later or skip...

Thought Corbyn did very well, the format works better for him as he gets time to explain his position, not just repeat slogans.

One audience member did seem quite irate about anti-Semitism and misogyny but over an obscure incident.

[SteveH]

Think e before i implies ay sound, i before e implies ee .. but itself doesn't work for "implies".

Given up now...

"implies" is an English word, so it doesn't apply. English and German pronounce ei and ie the opposite way round from each other, cf  English die (snuff it) and German die (feminine the). ei in German is pronounced "eye", and in English "ee", but I can't think of any English words with ei them: I think it's a rare letter-combination in English. Mind you, English id inconsistent, cf "thief", pronounced theef, not thife.

[Udayana]

"implies" is an English word, so it doesn't apply. English and German pronounce ei and ie the opposite way round from each other, cf  English die (snuff it) and German die (feminine the). ei in German is pronounced "eye", and in English "ee", but I can't think of any English words with ei them: I think it's a rare letter-combination in English. Mind you, English id inconsistent, cf "thief", pronounced theef, not thife.

Yes, of-course. Thanks.

[SteveH]

Actually, thinking about it, it seems that ie in Emglsih is pronouced "eye" at the end of a word (die, lie, pie, and fie (as in "fie on't!" in Hamlet)), but "ee" within a word (thief, chief, relieve, grieve). I wonder if it's got anything to do with the great vowel shift of the late 14th Century onwards. I used to have a recording of the General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, read in the original miiddle-English pronunciation, as far as we can work out what it was. I remember that the words "bake a pie" occur somewhere in it, and it was pronounced "bark a pea".

[wigginhall]

I suppose German words in the US are sometimes americanized, as with Epstein, and sometimes not, Einstein.  But then the Beatles' Epstein was pronounced like German.   Weinstein has both.

[jeremyp]

Can't get to the link ... but isn't that in contradiction to your rule? What ethnic background did Shelly give him?

I fixed the link, I think. If you watch it, all will become clear. If it still doesn't work, this is it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxxSIX3fmmo