Author Topic: The good that Christianity has done.  (Read 3278 times)

jeremyp

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2020, 08:35:18 PM »
 
Many of those 'secular' charities were founded by Christians.

Why do you put "secular" in scare quotes? "Secular" doesn't mean that the people in it are all atheists, it just means they don't let religion get in the way.

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Most Christian agencies will never discriminate on grounds of race or creed
And many do, and it's not just race or creed, it's sexuality too.
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SteveH

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2020, 10:31:18 PM »
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Most Christian agencies will never discriminate on grounds of race or creed
And many do, and it's not just race or creed, it's sexuality too.
I think you'll find that they're not allowed to.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2020, 08:33:06 AM »
How should I know? How would you have lived your life differently if you had been a believer? It's an impossible question to answer, because you only know about the life you've lived, not another life that you might have lived, but didn't.

Therefore it isn't possible to say that a person's faith has encouraged them to do good, they might have done so anyway.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

SteveH

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2020, 09:04:57 AM »
Therefore it isn't possible to say that a person's faith has encouraged them to do good, they might have done so anyway.
But it is undoubtedly the case, as has been shown more than once, that religious believers (not just Christians, admittedly) are more generous with their time and money than average, so at the very least naturally generous people are attracted to religion more than average, which itself says something good about religion.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

jeremyp

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2020, 10:07:59 AM »
And many do, and it's not just race or creed, it's sexuality too.
I think you'll find that they're not allowed to.
Because it’s against a secular law put n place by a secular government.
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ippy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2020, 12:33:25 PM »
'The good that Christianity has done', just taking in to consideration how many people there are that have been taken in by christian belief, on odds alone there has to be a lot of them doing good works, nothing special about that or anything special about them being religious believers.

I dare say when looking at the general run of percentages of the overall population that are either good or bad people including those in between, I'd take a bet there's not much of a difference when looking at the overall figures compared to the good and bad people that profess to have a religious belief of one kind or another, they would more than likely mirror each other.

ippy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2020, 07:26:39 PM »
But it is undoubtedly the case, as has been shown more than once, that religious believers (not just Christians, admittedly) are more generous with their time and money than average
Rubbish.

The is no difference in giving time through volunteering between christians and non religious people. From a recent survey of volunteering in the UK the results demonstrating the following rates of volunteering:

Christian
Formal 39%
Informal 68%

Non religious
Formal 39%
Informal 68%

Yup - exactly the same.

On giving, once donations to the church that active christians directly benefit from are removed there is no difference in giving either. Again from a recent report:

'Across all denominations, those respondents actively practising a religion were significantly more likely to have given than those who said that they had a religion but were not active. This finding is due to the fact that those actively practising were more likely to have given to charity via donations at their place of worship; once we exclude religious giving, those actively practising were no more likely than other respondents to have donated in the last four weeks.'

I could just as well claim that amateur choir members are more generous in their charitable donations than average - and I could point to incontrovertible evidence that I can be certain that every single member of my choir gives more to charity than average. Why - well because average charitable donation per annum is about £150 and our choir subscription (which is classified as a charitable donation) is £190 per annum.

But of course this donation provides a direct benefit to those people making that donation, just as donations to a church do. In most people's minds a real charitable donation is one that benefits others not yourself.

Outrider

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2020, 09:32:02 AM »
How early was  the cannibal part of mans history? We hear what you say but is cannibalism a part of man natural nature or is it just in neglected areas of the world where time has not caught up?

On the contrary, humans it appears are fairly distinct in the animal kingdom for uncommon cannibalism is. https://www.sciencealert.com/why-is-cannibalism-the-so-taboo-when-it-s-so-common-in-animals

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We can choose to be blind to the other things we rely on for medicine and healing. But the only cures without plants and medicines have come from the power of faith in God.

On the contrary, there are any number of synthetic drugs, purely mechanical treatments and mechanisms, artificial limbs and the like.  What there isn't is any reliable evidence that 'faith' has any curative power at all.

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WHY?  is it because we choose what we believe in?

If only we could blame believers for their poor choices rather than having to accept that they've fallen prey to a con that's been running for centuries.

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Turn a blind eye to what cannot be explained like God healing his children and those who are prayed for?

Except the we haven't turned a blind eye, we've exhaustively investigated, and where there isn't blatant deception or deceit there's actually most often no actual improvement at all.  We're all still waiting on someone's prayer for their child's replacement leg to come true, of course...

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Whatever excuse we turn to for healing we cannot deny that faith in God and his word have brought healing of those things which cannot be healed by a persons will power and wishes alone.

Which we is this that can't deny that?  I'll go out on exactly no limb here and say I don't accept anybody's claim that a god has healed them.

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In all things then healing of any kind has come from God.

Except in any meaningful way of actually contributing or existing... apart from that, yay, good job Yahweh...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2020, 09:37:04 AM »
And many do, and it's not just race or creed, it's sexuality too.
I think you'll find that they're not allowed to.

In the UK, or in the world in general?  In the UK they can, under very limited circumstances, where either there's an explicit exemptions (churches being permitted to turn away gay marriages, for instance) or if there is considered to be a biological effect, cultural sensitivity or an attempt to redress extant discrimination (i.e. all-women shortlists for positions, different toilet facility provisions etc.).

In the broader world, it depends on the particular nation - in the US, for instance, there still isn't any formal commitment from the state towards protections against discrimination for gay people, and the Equal Rights Amendment formalising that men and women deserve equal treatment still hasn't been fully ratified.

Go to, say, sub-Saharan Africa and see the implementation of violent Christian-led oppression of women's and gay rights movements and then come and tell us about Christianity's civilising effects.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

ippy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2020, 12:24:46 PM »
Rubbish.

The is no difference in giving time through volunteering between christians and non religious people. From a recent survey of volunteering in the UK the results demonstrating the following rates of volunteering:

Christian
Formal 39%
Informal 68%

Non religious
Formal 39%
Informal 68%

Yup - exactly the same.

On giving, once donations to the church that active christians directly benefit from are removed there is no difference in giving either. Again from a recent report:

'Across all denominations, those respondents actively practising a religion were significantly more likely to have given than those who said that they had a religion but were not active. This finding is due to the fact that those actively practising were more likely to have given to charity via donations at their place of worship; once we exclude religious giving, those actively practising were no more likely than other respondents to have donated in the last four weeks.'

I could just as well claim that amateur choir members are more generous in their charitable donations than average - and I could point to incontrovertible evidence that I can be certain that every single member of my choir gives more to charity than average. Why - well because average charitable donation per annum is about £150 and our choir subscription (which is classified as a charitable donation) is £190 per annum.

But of course this donation provides a direct benefit to those people making that donation, just as donations to a church do. In most people's minds a real charitable donation is one that benefits others not yourself.

My wife has no time for belief in religions and at the same time loves gospel singing, even so the local choir my wife sings with is being run by a few religious believers that have spread their brand name of the choirs quiet widely over the country and they're registered as a charity.

There are few towns around where we live and my wife likes to sing with some of the other towns choirs from time to time dependent on where they're going to perform, in the process she mixes with lots of the other members where they all share this love of the gospel sound and the most often feeling that's conveyed from all of these choirs is, love the singing but not interested in the content, i e most members seem to not be the least interested in the religious content.

So even though the choir is a registered as a christian charity the majority of the members don't give a fig or a stuff about christianity nor any other religious belief but the money they raise goes to religious charities which in turn makes me wonder if this is much the same as many other charities headed supposedly as christian charities where they're not anywhere near as christian based as they are painted yet we no doubt get to look at the money as money the religious give to charity.

This in turn reminds me of how the church gives figures out based on how many baptism certificates it dispenses to babies when they're still only babies in arms and then uses these figures in various efforts where they think the figures may gain them an advantage.

The religious authorities soon got upset by what at first glance looks odd, the 'debaptism certificates' idea of Barbara Smoker's, it was cutting down on their baptism figures and all that they thought they could gain with them.

ippy.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 04:59:14 PM by ippy »