Author Topic: 4th Horseman  (Read 1448 times)

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
4th Horseman
« on: December 03, 2022, 05:38:22 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is something about Sam Harris the famous 4th horseman of the quartet consisting of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/16/sam-harris-interview-new-atheism-four-horsemen-faith-science-religion-rationalism

***********

Back in the middle of the first decade of this century, a new movement was heralded by the publication of several books on the same subject. The main four authors were Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris. And the movement was called the New Atheism.

The four, who would become known as the Four Horsemen, got together in 2007 at Hitchens’s apartment in Washington to discuss arguments for atheism or, more accurately, against faith.

The New Atheism has rather faded from prominence, partly because, as its proponents acknowledged, it was not very different from the old atheism. And partly because it was a product of the ‘war on terror’, or at least an intellectual response to what that war was ostensibly targeting: namely, radical Islam.

Today, Dawkins and Dennett are in their late 70s, and no longer quite as active, and Hitchens, the most charismatic of them all, is dead.

There is a growing divide between those who trumpet empirical evidence and those who question the cultural and social conditions to which empiricism remains blind.

Harris has a side to his character that, by comparison with his three collaborators, makes him look less like a New Atheist than some Californian New Ager. In the discussion he tells them that there is “a place for the sacred in our lives”, and Dawkins looks askance

for such a combative rationalist, he remains incongruously keen on what the besandalled used to call self-transcendence. One of his more recent books was entitled Waking Up: Searching for Spirituality Without Religion. Harris sees no contradiction between his objective studies of the mind and the subjective experience of escaping its perpetual noise. They’re both means of understanding consciousness, he says.

“That we’re here and experiencing the world at each moment in the light of our consciousness is a deeply mysterious and profound fact, which, the more you pay attention to it, the more your experience begins to echo some of the claims of religious patriarchs and matriarchs down the ages.”

He says the west could learn a lot from the east – not Islam, but the traditions of meditation found in Hinduism and Buddhism.

************

Sam Harris seems to understand the difference between religion and spirituality quite well and recommends meditative practices. Not bad for an atheist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waking_Up:_A_Guide_to_Spirituality_Without_Religion
 
His Youtube video in which he reads out from his book (Waking Up) is quite interesting even if it is quite long. (I haven't heard it fully yet).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUnIJrpbwUw

Some of you could learn a thing or two from him.

Cheers.

Sriram





Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2022, 06:47:29 AM »


You can try this very short video too (under 4 minutes)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLKNvBdUtZY

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10894
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2022, 09:40:14 AM »
Quote
Sam Harris seems to understand the difference between religion and spirituality quite well and recommends meditative practices. Not bad for an atheist.

Some of you could learn a thing or two from him.

Hmmm....condescension. Not bad for a spiritualist.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2022, 03:42:55 PM »
Hi everyone,

Here is something about Sam Harris the famous 4th horseman of the quartet consisting of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/16/sam-harris-interview-new-atheism-four-horsemen-faith-science-religion-rationalism

...

You would probably be better off reading Gray's "Seven types of atheism", discussed briefly in another thread - especially the chapter on Schopenhauer.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2022, 06:04:31 AM »


The point being that.....even some confirmed atheists and neuro scientists do now recognize the value of meditations and the importance of delving into inner consciousness. They come up with insights that confirm facets of our mind and consciousness that have been reiterated by ancient and current philosophers and spiritualists.

It would do well for many hardcore atheists and materialists to realize this. Their patron saints are changing sides...!

 

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5652
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2022, 09:02:13 AM »

The point being that.....even some confirmed atheists and neuro scientists do now recognize the value of meditations and the importance of delving into inner consciousness. They come up with insights that confirm facets of our mind and consciousness that have been reiterated by ancient and current philosophers and spiritualists.

It would do well for many hardcore atheists and materialists to realize this. Their patron saints are changing sides...!

I doubt that most atheists have heard of Sam Harris, so certainly not a patron saint of atheism.

What he says is

'“We are sleepwalking, and when you learn how to meditate, you recognise that there is another possibility, which is to be vividly aware of your experience in each moment in a way that frees you from routine misery. Meditation is simply the practice of learning to break the spell and wake up.”

That's fair enough. Sure he's not the only atheists who meditates or uses other techniques to relax or to focus their thoughts. Doesn't mean much really as far as I can see.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 05:10:04 PM by Maeght »

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17430
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2022, 09:41:45 AM »
The point being that.....even some confirmed atheists and neuro scientists do now recognize the value of meditations and the importance of delving into inner consciousness.
But meditative practices have been the subject of research for decades. And there is robust evidence that such practices alter neurophysiology and associated psychology. So why on earth wouldn't atheists and neuroscientists recognise those effects, which can be beneficial to some people. There are, of course, all sorts of other practices that can induce similar types of physiological and psychological impacts - such as exercise, singing (particularly when in groups), listening to music etc.

Where atheists and neuroscientists will diverge with you Sriram is when you ascribe these effects to something beyond physiological/psychological effects - specifically suggesting some effect of woo.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2022, 10:50:59 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is something about Sam Harris the famous 4th horseman of the quartet consisting of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/16/sam-harris-interview-new-atheism-four-horsemen-faith-science-religion-rationalism

***********

Back in the middle of the first decade of this century, a new movement was heralded by the publication of several books on the same subject. The main four authors were Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris. And the movement was called the New Atheism.

The four, who would become known as the Four Horsemen, got together in 2007 at Hitchens’s apartment in Washington to discuss arguments for atheism or, more accurately, against faith.

The New Atheism has rather faded from prominence, partly because, as its proponents acknowledged, it was not very different from the old atheism. And partly because it was a product of the ‘war on terror’, or at least an intellectual response to what that war was ostensibly targeting: namely, radical Islam.

Today, Dawkins and Dennett are in their late 70s, and no longer quite as active, and Hitchens, the most charismatic of them all, is dead.

There is a growing divide between those who trumpet empirical evidence and those who question the cultural and social conditions to which empiricism remains blind.

Harris has a side to his character that, by comparison with his three collaborators, makes him look less like a New Atheist than some Californian New Ager. In the discussion he tells them that there is “a place for the sacred in our lives”, and Dawkins looks askance

for such a combative rationalist, he remains incongruously keen on what the besandalled used to call self-transcendence. One of his more recent books was entitled Waking Up: Searching for Spirituality Without Religion. Harris sees no contradiction between his objective studies of the mind and the subjective experience of escaping its perpetual noise. They’re both means of understanding consciousness, he says.

“That we’re here and experiencing the world at each moment in the light of our consciousness is a deeply mysterious and profound fact, which, the more you pay attention to it, the more your experience begins to echo some of the claims of religious patriarchs and matriarchs down the ages.”

He says the west could learn a lot from the east – not Islam, but the traditions of meditation found in Hinduism and Buddhism.

************

Sam Harris seems to understand the difference between religion and spirituality quite well and recommends meditative practices. Not bad for an atheist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waking_Up:_A_Guide_to_Spirituality_Without_Religion
 
His Youtube video in which he reads out from his book (Waking Up) is quite interesting even if it is quite long. (I haven't heard it fully yet).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUnIJrpbwUw

Some of you could learn a thing or two from him.

Cheers.

Sriram

It is interesting that you refer to Sam Harris and his leanings towards spirituality and meditation. This. of course, is nothing new. he has been writing about this since at least 2012. I think that you wil also find that most of those on this forum to whom your post was directed are well aware of Sam Harris. Some of us have also written in the past on this forum about the usefulness of meditation techniques.

Howver it just might be enlightening to you to consider what Sam Harris actually has to say about spirituality, pseudo spirituality and meditation, so here are a couple of short pieces that he wrote on these subjects.

https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-path-between-pseudo-spirituality-and-pseudo-science

https://www.samharris.org/blog/a-plea-for-spirituality


Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33041
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2022, 02:10:44 PM »
It is interesting that you refer to Sam Harris and his leanings towards spirituality and meditation. This. of course, is nothing new. he has been writing about this since at least 2012. I think that you wil also find that most of those on this forum to whom your post was directed are well aware of Sam Harris. Some of us have also written in the past on this forum about the usefulness of meditation techniques.

Howver it just might be enlightening to you to consider what Sam Harris actually has to say about spirituality, pseudo spirituality and meditation, so here are a couple of short pieces that he wrote on these subjects.

https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-path-between-pseudo-spirituality-and-pseudo-science

https://www.samharris.org/blog/a-plea-for-spirituality
"We MUST begin to think in a way...that is free from Dogma."
Sam Harris.


Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2022, 02:53:37 PM »

The fact that Harris has understood the difference between spirituality and religion is a good beginning. Then he has taken to Buddhism instead of brushing it off as another religion. That he has actually taken to practicing Buddhist techniques is even better. He is getting there.

Further he talks of getting answers not through external observation but through direct experience. He doesn't talk of direct subjective experience as unreliable and insufficient to understand reality. He actually advocates direct experience as the means to happiness and an understanding of consciousness. 

This is more than we can expect as a beginning from an atheist. Understanding deeper and more complex aspects of spirituality will happen in due course. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 03:02:44 PM by Sriram »

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17430
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2022, 02:59:22 PM »
The fact that Harris has understood the difference between spirituality and religion is a good beginning. Then he has taken to Buddhism instead of brushing it off as another religion. That he has actually taken to practicing Buddhist techniques is even better. He is getting there.
Blimey - you are really are incredibly patronising Sriram.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17430
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2022, 03:00:36 PM »
This is more than we can expect as a beginning from an atheist. Understanding deeper and more complex aspects of spirituality will happen in due course.
Even more patronising.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2022, 03:10:14 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
This is more than we can expect as a beginning from an atheist.

Given how many of your efforts here are easily falsified, following which you typically run away from the falsifications you’re given does it occur to you that patronising atheists (a term you seem not to understand by the way) puts you on awfully thin ice here?

Oh, and if you seriously think subjective “experiences” (by which presumably you mean the narratives people tell themselves about these experiences) are a reliable guide to objective truths for everyone then you need to find a logical path from one to the other.

Good luck with it though. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33041
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2022, 03:13:12 PM »
I wonder if Sam Harris will stick to his guns.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2022, 10:10:53 AM »
I wonder if Sam Harris will stick to his guns.

Talking about guns, at least Sam Harris isn't suggesting that we kill the Buddha, as Lin Chi is supposed to have said, but rather kill Buddhism, which I take to mean that he wants to get rid of all its religious trappings and keep what's useful. ;)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2022, 10:20:37 AM »
The fact that Harris has understood the difference between spirituality and religion is a good beginning. Then he has taken to Buddhism instead of brushing it off as another religion. That he has actually taken to practicing Buddhist techniques is even better. He is getting there.

Further he talks of getting answers not through external observation but through direct experience. He doesn't talk of direct subjective experience as unreliable and insufficient to understand reality. He actually advocates direct experience as the means to happiness and an understanding of consciousness. 

This is more than we can expect as a beginning from an atheist. Understanding deeper and more complex aspects of spirituality will happen in due course.

Are you sure that your attempts at being patronising are not simply to obscure the fact that you have difficulty in responding to the arguments that the atheists and others here put forward? Just asking... :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33041
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2022, 10:53:24 AM »
Talking about guns, at least Sam Harris isn't suggesting that we kill the Buddha, as Lin Chi is supposed to have said, but rather kill Buddhism, which I take to mean that he wants to get rid of all its religious trappings and keep what's useful. ;)
Sam Harris supports the American Gun Lobby and keeps a few himself, I think. He is also pro first strike in the nuclear arms race.
I want to win the lottery.
Given his penchant for ''roscoes'', I'm  entertained by the idea of richard Dawkins or Daniel Dennett greeting Harris with a''Hi, Sam, is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see us?''
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 11:42:49 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2022, 12:02:15 PM »
Sam Harris supports the American Gun Lobby and keeps a few himself, I think. He is also pro first strike in the nuclear arms race.
I want to win the lottery.
Given his penchant for ''roscoes'', I'm  entertained by the idea of richard Dawkins or Daniel Dennett greeting Harris with a''Hi, Sam, is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see us?''

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to keep the topic on track...obviously unsuccessfully. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33041
Re: 4th Horseman
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2022, 01:54:17 PM »
Yeah, I know. I was just trying to keep the topic on track...obviously unsuccessfully. :)
Guns, spirituality, swivel eyed antitheism.....whataguy!