Stephen Fry and Sandi Toksvig lead call for recognition of humanist marriages

[Nearly Sane]

To be honest, I would be happier if there was just a civil ceremony, and any flummery was simply for the religions themselves.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/18/stephen-fry-sandi-toksvig-lead-call-for-recognition-of-humanist-marriages

[SqueakyVoice]

I'd be very surprised if they did get married.

For now though, you could use a registrar, it's a bit more formal and a bit less flummery.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

To be honest, I would be happier if there was just a civil ceremony, and any flummery was simply for the religions themselves.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/18/stephen-fry-sandi-toksvig-lead-call-for-recognition-of-humanist-marriages

The flummery would come in the presumption that all witnesses and celebrants were as grand as the occasion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Their could be a Fry Toksvig service where the marriage could be done like a round of QI.

[Nearly Sane]

The flummery would come in the presumption that all witnesses and celebrants were as grand as the occasion.

Sorry, no idea what point you are trying to make. Could you expand, please?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sorry, no idea what point you are trying to make. Could you expand, please?

Flummery comes with the people. It’s part of the marriage territory.

[Nearly Sane]

Flummery comes with the people. It’s part of the marriage territory.

Ok, then all flummery is equal and they get to chose it but it's extraneous to the state's involvement

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Ok, then all flummery is equal and they get to chose it but it's extraneous to the state's involvement

Is the state not capable of flummery? The next few days tells me yes it is.

[Nearly Sane]

Is the state not capable of flummery? The next few days tells me yes it is.

Indeed it is, and to paraphrase Celtic fans at the weekend 'You can stick your flummery up your arse'

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do Humanists want Humanist marriages answer yes. Implication?Civil marriages aren’t Humanist enough.

Do Humanists want Humanist schools? No, implication Non faith schools are Humanist enough...Kerching, money and effort saved.

[Nearly Sane]

Do Humanists want Humanist marriages answer yes. Implication?Civil marriages aren’t Humanist enough.

Do Humanists want Humanist schools? No, implication Non faith schools are Humanist enough...Kerching, money and effort saved.

I think your right that there is an inconsistency here, and one that I agree is relevant hence my original comment.

The implication though that consistency is relevant as to whether something should happen though does not follow.

[Outrider]

Do Humanists want Humanist marriages answer yes. Implication?Civil marriages aren’t Humanist enough.

Implication, humanists want something that represents them.

Do Humanists want Humanist schools? No, implication Non faith schools are Humanist enough...Kerching, money and effort saved.

Implication, humanists don't want to be part of indoctrinating the youth (and, also, probably don't want other people involved in it, either).

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Implication, humanists want something that represents them.

Implication, humanists don't want to be part of indoctrinating the youth (and, also, probably don't want other people involved in it, either).

O.

And the implication there is that they have contemplated what a Humanist school would be like and found their conclusions to be indoctrinating.

On the other hand though, some of us see precious litttle difference between the present secular schools and Humanist schools.

If you think there is a difference please share that with us.

[Outrider]

And the implication there is that they have contemplated what a Humanist school would be like and found their conclusions to be indoctrinating.

Yes. Any deliberate attempt to inculcate a particular point of view in children is indoctrination.

On the other hand though, some of us see precious litttle difference between the present secular schools and Humanist schools.

I don't know how much you know about education - I work in the field, and I'm married to a teacher - but I know how much you understand about humanism, so frankly that conclusion doesn't stand up to much examination.

If you think there is a difference please share that with us.

Humanism is a position - having that as a starting point and teaching other positions as 'other' would be indoctrination. The majority of schools do not do that, they start with a position of teaching about positions, and explain that people have their own choice regarding those positions. There are free school and faith school exceptions to that, of course, and we see in those both the inculcation that is problematic, and the co-opting of that quasi-selective nature to actually commit selection and cherry-pick students to further compromise the education field.

O.
[/quote]

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes. Any deliberate attempt to inculcate a particular point of view in children is indoctrination.

I don't know how much you know about education - I work in the field, and I'm married to a teacher - but I know how much you understand about humanism, so frankly that conclusion doesn't stand up to much examination.

Humanism is a position - having that as a starting point and teaching other positions as 'other' would be indoctrination. The majority of schools do not do that, they start with a position of teaching about positions, and explain that people have their own choice regarding those positions. There are free school and faith school exceptions to that, of course, and we see in those both the inculcation that is problematic, and the co-opting of that quasi-selective nature to actually commit selection and cherry-pick students to further compromise the education field.

O.

This is too idealist. Schools are about order and training and information more than you are letting on. I wonder if you are writing from your last school memory of your sixth form here.

Education has to be prescriptive leading to the kind and cooperative and the behaved.

We teach kids middle class Humanist values often against the values of a disordered underclass and we have to be assertive in that.

[Outrider]

This is too idealist.

Can you get such a thing? Shouldn't we all be aspiring to be our better angels? That notwithstanding, that's the intent. You might suggest that there's failures in application, but that's not a basis for your accusations of deliberate indoctrination on the part of humanists and others.

Schools are about order and training and information more than you are letting on.

Thank you for incorrectly trying to update me on what my work environment is. School may well have been about control and training and information when you were there, and there were certainly stronger elements of that when I was at school than there are now. That is not what modern education is about.

I wonder if you are writing from your last school memory of your sixth form here.

The last time I was in an education setting was, let me just check, about forty minutes ago. You?

Education has to be prescriptive leading to the kind and cooperative and the behaved.

No, it doesn't. There are any number of educational theories, and in different settings some of them work and others don't, but no-one these days will stand for the sort of authoritarian, prescriptive dictatorial rote learning that results in crushing the variety of the children in our care to produce a one-size fits all 'classically' educated acceptable citizen.

We teach kids middle class Humanist values often against the values of a disordered underclass and we have to be assertive in that.

'We' don't. Maybe you should become a school governor - schools are always crying out for governors, many governors are an amazing benefit to their schools, and it's an opportunity to improve your communities - and find out a little bit about what schooling is like in this millenium.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Can you get such a thing? Shouldn't we all be aspiring to be our better angels? That notwithstanding, that's the intent. You might suggest that there's failures in application, but that's not a basis for your accusations of deliberate indoctrination on the part of humanists and others.

Thank you for incorrectly trying to update me on what my work environment is. School may well have been about control and training and information when you were there, and there were certainly stronger elements of that when I was at school than there are now. That is not what modern education is about.

The last time I was in an education setting was, let me just check, about forty minutes ago. You?

No, it doesn't. There are any number of educational theories, and in different settings some of them work and others don't, but no-one these days will stand for the sort of authoritarian, prescriptive dictatorial rote learning that results in crushing the variety of the children in our care to produce a one-size fits all 'classically' educated acceptable citizen.

'We' don't. Maybe you should become a school governor - schools are always crying out for governors, many governors are an amazing benefit to their schools, and it's an opportunity to improve your communities - and find out a little bit about what schooling is like in this millenium.

O.

If you are achieving results in your teaching that in itself assumes standards, plans, objectives etc which adds up to a larger measure of prescription than you are allowing.
If you are in secondary it's possible that that has been done fore you or is being done for you.

But what I want from you is the parts of humanism that you think a humanist school would indoctrinate pupils. You know , the reasons why Humanists according to you don't want humanist schools.

[Outrider]

If you are achieving results in your teaching that in itself assumes standards, plans, objectives etc which adds up to a larger measure of prescription than you are allowing.

First, I don't teach, I work in the education sector. Second, we don't teach for facts, we teach for skills. If children can do, they pass, if they know but can't use that knowledge we've failed and they fail.

If you are in secondary it's possible that that has been done fore you or is being done for you.

I work across both. I'd still put my knowledge of my work and workplace above your understanding of it.

But what I want from you is the parts of humanism that you think a humanist school would indoctrinate pupils.

It doesn't really matter, it might be different parts in different schools. If they're taught that humanism is a thing, and given the PHSCE to decide for themselves that's the better path.

You know , the reasons why Humanists according to you don't want humanist schools.

Because setting up a school to teach a particular way of thought, even if it's one that I agree with, is indoctrination which is removing the freedom of those children to lead their own informed lives.

O.