Author Topic: Living without a brain  (Read 1619 times)

Sriram

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2023, 06:15:48 AM »
No. Your heart can die, but you can survive with a donor organ or an artificial organ. Kidneys, lungs, skin... the number of organs that we can, temporarily or permanently, replace so that dead organs do not necessarily result in dead people is increasing. The brain is not one of them, and I'm not aware of anyone that thinks that's likely to change any time soon, if it's possible at all.

I'm more concerned with the range of people - the Trumps of the world - who apparently have 100% of their brain and we're all aware that it doesn't seem like it.

O.


Talking of heart donors.......there are many cases where heart recipients have taken on the personalities of the donors.  This shows that memory is not restricted to the brain. The heart can also retain memories and emotions.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799207/m2/1/high_res_d/vol20-no3-191.pdf

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It is generally assumed that learning is restricted to neural and
immune systems. However, the systemic memory hypothesis predicts that all
dynamical systems that contain recurrent feedback loops store information
and energy to various degrees. Sensitive transplant patients may evidence
personal changes that parallel the history of their donors.

We suggest that cellular memory, possibly systemic memory, is a plausible
explanation for these parallels.

*********

Outrider

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2023, 09:22:01 AM »

Talking of heart donors.......there are many cases where heart recipients have taken on the personalities of the donors.  This shows that memory is not restricted to the brain. The heart can also retain memories and emotions.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799207/m2/1/high_res_d/vol20-no3-191.pdf

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It is generally assumed that learning is restricted to neural and
immune systems. However, the systemic memory hypothesis predicts that all
dynamical systems that contain recurrent feedback loops store information
and energy to various degrees. Sensitive transplant patients may evidence
personal changes that parallel the history of their donors.

We suggest that cellular memory, possibly systemic memory, is a plausible
explanation for these parallels.

*********

Oh good grief...

Is it really so implausible to think that someone undergoing a traumatic life event, say like needing a heart transplant, might manifest some of the same character traits as someone undergoing a different traumatic life event which results in them dying and donating a heart? Is that really somehow a less likely possibility than magic heart memories?

O.
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torridon

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2023, 06:59:51 AM »

Talking of heart donors.......there are many cases where heart recipients have taken on the personalities of the donors.  This shows that memory is not restricted to the brain. The heart can also retain memories and emotions.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799207/m2/1/high_res_d/vol20-no3-191.pdf

*********

It is generally assumed that learning is restricted to neural and
immune systems. However, the systemic memory hypothesis predicts that all
dynamical systems that contain recurrent feedback loops store information
and energy to various degrees. Sensitive transplant patients may evidence
personal changes that parallel the history of their donors.

We suggest that cellular memory, possibly systemic memory, is a plausible
explanation for these parallels.

*********

Whilst true that all bodily organs including the heart have thousands of neurons, it is not thought that these play any part in higher cognitive functioning.  Heart neurons are regulating the pumping, they have a mechanical role to play.

Like NDEs, the idea that we can inherit memories or personality traits from an organ donor enjoys only anecdotal evidence.  Psychological factors likely underpin such claims more than genuine physiological ones.

Sriram

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2023, 07:49:10 AM »


I think you should read the earlier linked file. It is not something that you can dismiss off hand, as you people usually do in matters which are off the narrow beaten track.

Try this also..

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/explorations-the-mind/202110/heart-transplants-personality-transplants

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The heart is not just a pump; kidneys don’t just purify our blood; the lungs are more than breathing machines.

The heart, like the nervous system, possesses the properties of memory and adaptation.

The heart acts as a synchronizing force within the body, a key carrier of emotional information as well as other personality keys.

Sensitive transplant patients may evidence personality changes that parallel the experiences, likes, dislikes, and temperament of their donors.

***********

Stranger

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2023, 08:21:10 AM »
I think you should read the earlier linked file. It is not something that you can dismiss off hand, as you people usually do in matters which are off the narrow beaten track.

Try this also..

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/explorations-the-mind/202110/heart-transplants-personality-transplants

***********

The heart is not just a pump; kidneys don’t just purify our blood; the lungs are more than breathing machines.

The heart, like the nervous system, possesses the properties of memory and adaptation.

The heart acts as a synchronizing force within the body, a key carrier of emotional information as well as other personality keys.

Sensitive transplant patients may evidence personality changes that parallel the experiences, likes, dislikes, and temperament of their donors.

***********

The blog continues: "Anecdotal though they may be, there are numerous accounts in popular books and magazines of heart transplant recipients experiencing distinct changes in personality and behavior following transplant surgery."

Anecdotes are pretty useless as evidence. There does appear to be some other work that is slightly more serious and it would, of course, be interesting if something concrete was discovered but nobody is proposing any non-physical hypotheses or conjectures, so it doesn't really fit with what you want to be true at all.

Looks like you're just throwing random fringe ideas at us in the hope of distracting from the total lack of any evidence whatsoever for your claims of minds without brains.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2023, 10:04:41 AM »
I think you should read the earlier linked file. It is not something that you can dismiss off hand, as you people usually do in matters which are off the narrow beaten track.

It's not something that should be dismissed out of hand, but millions of hours of detailed, studious work by research scientists around the world is, because you have an anecdote and a low threshold for the unholy triumvirate of romantic notions, pseudoscience and bullshit?

Quote
The heart is not just a pump; kidneys don’t just purify our blood; the lungs are more than breathing machines.

The heart is an exceptional pump, but it is pretty much just a pump. The kidneys are primarily a filter (for wastes, salts and acids), but also produce a few key hormones and is part of the activation mechanism for vitamin D. The lungs are an oxygen transfer membrane, primarily, but also serve to warm incoming air as part of the homeostatic mechanisms of the body, a waste evacuation mechanism and part of the immune function.

What none of them are is any direct part of a person's personality or memories.

People going through traumatic events undergo changes of personality - sometimes those changes will coincide with traits of their donors, some of whom themselves were going through traumatic life events of their own. When those coincide we notice the pattern, and when they don't coincide there's nothing to notice and so we ignore those incidents. Do you have anything more than a few isolated anecdotes and some woo about 'hearts having memory'?

O.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2023, 10:41:32 AM »

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351993827_Heart_memory_or_can_transplanted_heart_manipulate_recipients_brain_control_over_mind_body_interactions

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This hypothesis makes at least some features ofthe heart physiology of memory rather simple. The memory is created mainly in the brain. It is transferred to the heart and vice versa by exosomes. This occurs dynamically, during whole human life. The neural paths do not play any or, only minimal role. Never-theless, this doesn’t exclude the memory is created in the heart too.

All of these observations are in concert with the proposed hypothesis of the “exosome memory transfer” in the heart transplant recipients. They support the idea that at least a part of human memory is stored in the heart and temporally circulates in blood vessels. Finally it dynamically interacts with all organs, mainly the heart and the brain.

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2023, 03:52:43 PM »

Talking of heart donors.......there are many cases where heart recipients have taken on the personalities of the donors.  This shows that memory is not restricted to the brain. The heart can also retain memories and emotions.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799207/m2/1/high_res_d/vol20-no3-191.pdf

*********

It is generally assumed that learning is restricted to neural and
immune systems. However, the systemic memory hypothesis predicts that all
dynamical systems that contain recurrent feedback loops store information
and energy to various degrees. Sensitive transplant patients may evidence
personal changes that parallel the history of their donors.

We suggest that cellular memory, possibly systemic memory, is a plausible
explanation for these parallels.

*********

Hammer Horror films made a fair amount of money out of this sort of thing: "The Hands of the Ripper"!
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Sriram

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Re: Living without a brain
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2023, 06:25:41 AM »
It's not something that should be dismissed out of hand, but millions of hours of detailed, studious work by research scientists around the world is, because you have an anecdote and a low threshold for the unholy triumvirate of romantic notions, pseudoscience and bullshit?

The heart is an exceptional pump, but it is pretty much just a pump. The kidneys are primarily a filter (for wastes, salts and acids), but also produce a few key hormones and is part of the activation mechanism for vitamin D. The lungs are an oxygen transfer membrane, primarily, but also serve to warm incoming air as part of the homeostatic mechanisms of the body, a waste evacuation mechanism and part of the immune function.

What none of them are is any direct part of a person's personality or memories.

People going through traumatic events undergo changes of personality - sometimes those changes will coincide with traits of their donors, some of whom themselves were going through traumatic life events of their own. When those coincide we notice the pattern, and when they don't coincide there's nothing to notice and so we ignore those incidents. Do you have anything more than a few isolated anecdotes and some woo about 'hearts having memory'?

O.

O.


There seems to be plenty of evidence for memories in the heart also.....