Author Topic: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell  (Read 1360 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2023, 08:35:16 AM »
Just for background, here's a nice article on communication.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/communication/Models-of-communication

One of the prime uses of language in its fab-u-lous flex-i-bility is categorisation. We are able to talk about groups of things that while not entirely the same share sufficient characteristics, that we can group them together usefully. One of the prime uses of the term code is that it allows us to examine what are deliberate attempts to communicate by various methods.to understand such things as efficiencies.

We also use the strengths of language to explaim things with metaphor and analogy. In this we are not grouping things together in the same way - hence why they are deliberate forms of communication, categories, in themselves.

Science, due to its complexity, and specialisation, is a good candidate for the use of both. Our tendency to extend metaphors and analogies leads to the types of arguments tgat if it's like it in one way, ot should be like it in others. Hence the code needing an individual to 'write' it.

 As noted in an earlier reply, this often leads people to make fallacious arguments by analogy, so as attempted many times on here a person's consciousness is just like software and therefore can survive the destruction of the hardware/body.

Anyway - woohoo for the advance in treatment 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2023, 08:36:29 AM »
Now you're moving the goalposts. You said "...And communication presupposes some form of deliberate intent between entities." I was answering that specific point, about communication, not about code specifically, as I made clear.
No, it's the same issue with metaphor. We use 'communication' there as shorthand. See the post I've just put up before this one.

Stranger

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Re: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2023, 08:55:35 AM »
This isn't about science, it's about language.

You seem to be talking about the scientific accuracy of the language used, otherwise, what the hell are you talking about?

The use of metaphor to explsin things is fine, though as highlighted in this and countless other discussions on here fraught with the issue that when people use metaphor to explain things, people have a tendency to think it is not like in a certain way but in all ways. Hence the 'a code must have a writer' stuff.

It's similar to the problems when people use analigy, and either people then highlight differences to say the analogy doesn't work because of some difference, mistaking that the analogy is not an argument. Or they use analogy as argumeng making the reverse mistake.

As I said, I think it's an unavoidable problem, so you have to choose your metaphor and accept that it's going to misinterpreted.

Code in generalised use is a deliberate method of communication. DNA is not that.

Actually, it has multiple senses. Taking one (non-technical) dictionary, I count eight senses (excluding the American dictionary versions), including a specific sense for DNA:

"an arrangement of genetic material in DNA (= the chemical that carries genetic information in cells)"

Also the very first sense is

"a system of words, letters, or signs used to represent a message in secret form, or a system of numbers, letters, or signals used to represent something in a shorter or more convenient form",

which is also applicable in the second case.

Cambridge dictionary - code
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Nearly Sane

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Re: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2023, 08:59:16 AM »
The other aspect that makes all this even more tangled is that much of language, particularly the area of categorisation, is based around metaphor and analogy. As mentioned earlier, code is not a Platonic ideal handed down to, or discovered by, us. It, as all words, is a bucket for a bit of our struggle to break the bounds of hard solipsism.

The power to me of the metaphors of DNA being like a blueprint, a code, a recipe, or a multicoloured adsent minded giraffe called Doris is that only by a multidimensional approach to using language can we hope to only connect.

Indeed perhaps thinking about it, code works as a better word than language there, since language is usually about the written or spoken arrangements. We often use language as a metaphor, see how entwined this all is, in other areas such as music and painting, but again it seems that code would be clearer there. Language is almost a crystallised code. A code that has moved on from being something needing to be broken.

Perhaps it is also by analogy a game, a concept highlighted by Wittgenstein, as illustrative of the ineffable slipperiness of even our most solid code.


SteveH

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Re: Casgevy: UK approves gene-editing drug for sickle cell
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2023, 09:22:42 AM »
No, it's the same issue with metaphor. We use 'communication' there as shorthand. See the post I've just put up before this one.
  DNA, as is obvious to anyone who has half a brain and hasn't bamboozled themselves with a load of pseudo-intellectual bollocks about the nature of analogy, is LITERALLY a code, and having said that, I'm saying no more about it. I've had enough.
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