Author Topic: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian  (Read 4326 times)

Keith Maitland

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Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« on: March 21, 2015, 09:43:12 PM »
Did anyone read this piece in The Guardian last week?

http://tinyurl.com/kx6stcn

This is a side of Pinker I do not like.

Arguing about war is a bit of a red herring. My first reaction was to ask:

What about psychological violence?

The number of suicides around the world is increasing, predominantly and ironically in the most peaceful and medically/technologically advanced countries. Even if war is all but eradicated, boredom and a general sense of the emptiness of existence will take its place and cause a great amount of suffering. Indeed, boredom seems rather underrated as a form of suffering in my opinion.

I also sense a kind of gamesmanship and point scoring coming from Pinker, whose rather banal point is that violence has been decreasing. Yes, perhaps, but for a statistically meaningless amount of time for just a few generations of humans, a species he clearly favors. What about all the millions of years of evolution on this planet during which myriad life forms devoured each other? What about the vast, mostly irredeemable changes to the climate and biosphere that humans have caused during this same span of time? Some good a lack of war will do us when more deadly natural disasters take its place! And too bad non-human animals don't have quite the same "stuff of thought" to more clearly express their terror and pain at being systematically obliterated, either for food or just because they were in the way, by the hairless ape overlords!

As Schopenhauer remarked, any kind of optimism, including Pinker's, always comes across as a bitter mockery of the very real sufferings of innumerable creatures, both human and not. One has the urge to be Pinker's Virgil and show him around the various circles of hell on earth so that he can see the hollowness of his claims.

How patronizing it would be to some poor man in pain to see an Ivy League pinhead like Pinker explain to him that he may take his suffering in stride, for according to the data, humans outwardly appear to be less violent! No spreadsheet or chart showing a meaningless trend ever cured cancer or will ever cure it.

Speaking of which, the budget for cancer research has been recently slashed by the federal government, the members of which were elected by people who "vote in democracies," a group Pinker uses to "measure progress." How very strange! What's also strange is the juxtaposition that comes right after that in his list: "enjoying the necessities of modern life."

Chew on that phrase for a minute. What exactly is he trying to say? Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating, contracting illnesses, becoming an invalid in old age, and finally dying - let alone modern life - which presumably include things like being forced to work under a system of wage slavery, owning various items like cars that help destroy the environment and other species, and living in a completely asinine, morally vacuous culture as well as under a government controlled by sociopathic plutocrats?

Oh yes, Pinker, I do so much "enjoy" these necessities and I'm sure everyone else does too....

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2015, 08:02:50 AM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 11:19:48 AM »
Did anyone read this piece in The Guardian last week?

http://tinyurl.com/kx6stcn

This is a side of Pinker I do not like.

Arguing about war is a bit of a red herring. My first reaction was to ask:

What about psychological violence?

Yes I think that might be mine too.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 11:43:43 AM »
Did anyone read this piece in The Guardian last week?

http://tinyurl.com/kx6stcn

This is a side of Pinker I do not like.

Arguing about war is a bit of a red herring. My first reaction was to ask:

What about psychological violence?

The number of suicides around the world is increasing, predominantly and ironically in the most peaceful and medically/technologically advanced countries. Even if war is all but eradicated, boredom and a general sense of the emptiness of existence will take its place and cause a great amount of suffering. Indeed, boredom seems rather underrated as a form of suffering in my opinion.

I also sense a kind of gamesmanship and point scoring coming from Pinker, whose rather banal point is that violence has been decreasing. Yes, perhaps, but for a statistically meaningless amount of time for just a few generations of humans, a species he clearly favors. What about all the millions of years of evolution on this planet during which myriad life forms devoured each other? What about the vast, mostly irredeemable changes to the climate and biosphere that humans have caused during this same span of time? Some good a lack of war will do us when more deadly natural disasters take its place! And too bad non-human animals don't have quite the same "stuff of thought" to more clearly express their terror and pain at being systematically obliterated, either for food or just because they were in the way, by the hairless ape overlords!

The rape of the natural world is of course another Gray motif and one in which it is harder for Pinker to get points off....because Gray here is patently right.

Also Pinker's aim is not just to get us to look at  certain figures but to link the ''lack of wars'' to scientific sophistication, the old technological progress fallacy.

And that's where Pinker breaks down. We were scared shitless and maintained in that states for decades by scientific and technological sophistication in weaponry.
Everybody shook hands and we thought the Good times were going to roll....but things are now rolling back. The Pinker analysis is therefore very wrong.since it is the wrong picture of what happening and gives a prediction of a trend which we are seeing the signs of being the exact opposite.

Jack Knave

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 06:12:56 PM »
Some comments by Gray.   http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/13/john-gray-steven-pinker-wrong-violence-war-declining

Emphasis mine.

"Such links between Enlightenment thinking and 20th-century barbarism are, for Pinker, merely aberrations, distortions of a pristine teaching that is innocent of any crime: the atrocities that have been carried out in its name come from misinterpreting the true gospel, or its corruption by alien influences. The childish simplicity of this way of thinking is reminiscent of Christians who ask how a religion of love could possibly be involved in the Inquisition. In each case it is pointless to argue the point, since what is at stake is an article of faith."


"In Europe, targeted killing of journalists, artists and Jews in Paris and Copenhagen embodies a type of warfare that refuses to recognise any distinction between combatants and civilians. Whether they accept the fact or not, advanced societies have become terrains of violent conflict. Rather than war declining, the difference between peace and war has been fatally blurred."
 
                         -------------------------------------

And when the resources really start to dwindle we will see just how civilized and empathic this 'peace loving' mankind really is.

jeremyp

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2015, 08:33:05 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.
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Leonard James

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2015, 08:54:12 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 07:19:42 AM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

I remember Mariella Frostrup interviewing G & G on an arts show sometime in the nineties. When asked as to why they were regularly using faecial material within their works, George replied "Eating is enjoyable. Shitting is enjoyable. But one action is celebrated, and the other is taboo". Mariella began to reply "Well I find that the one..." and then she suddenly stopped, realising at the last second that George had almost persuaded her, the thinking mans crumpet for the nineties, into talking about her defecation experiences.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 09:31:16 AM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)

One of the great inventions of the twentieth century: the Japanese toilet seat.
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Leonard James

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 11:16:47 AM »

One of the great inventions of the twentieth century: the Japanese toilet seat.

I'm going to regret asking, but what is that?

Harrowby Hall

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Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 05:41:11 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Notin espana surely?

Jack Knave

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 05:09:53 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Haven't you got central heating? Or is your loo outside, Leonard?

Leonard James

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2015, 09:12:20 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Haven't you got central heating? Or is your loo outside, Leonard?

No, we have a normal bathroom and toilet  indoors, but we don't have central heating. Furthermore I am very sensitive to the cold, and these plastic toilet seats seem to get colder as you get older! In the winter, if I'm not desperate, I usually sit on it for a while to warm it before I drop my pants.  :)

Enki

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2015, 10:22:43 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Haven't you got central heating? Or is your loo outside, Leonard?

No, we have a normal bathroom and toilet  indoors, but we don't have central heating. Furthermore I am very sensitive to the cold, and these plastic toilet seats seem to get colder as you get older! In the winter, if I'm not desperate, I usually sit on it for a while to warm it before I drop my pants.  :)

Get a wooden one, Len. So much warmer ;)
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2015, 01:29:24 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Haven't you got central heating? Or is your loo outside, Leonard?

No, we have a normal bathroom and toilet  indoors, but we don't have central heating. Furthermore I am very sensitive to the cold, and these plastic toilet seats seem to get colder as you get older! In the winter, if I'm not desperate, I usually sit on it for a while to warm it before I drop my pants.  :)

Get a wooden one, Len. So much warmer ;)

or one of these....

http://www.amazon.com/UltraTouch-Heated-Toilet-Seat-White/dp/B001RUQFHY
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Jack Knave

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Re: Gray and Pinker in The Guardian
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2015, 07:30:07 PM »
Who the hell "enjoys" the necessities of life - which presumably include things like defecating,

Gilbert & George.

With the invention of the flush toilet and soft toilet paper, taking a dump can often be quite an enjoyable experience, particularly if you were desperate.

Less so in winter, when the toilet seat can be bleedin' cold.  :)
Haven't you got central heating? Or is your loo outside, Leonard?

No, we have a normal bathroom and toilet  indoors, but we don't have central heating. Furthermore I am very sensitive to the cold, and these plastic toilet seats seem to get colder as you get older! In the winter, if I'm not desperate, I usually sit on it for a while to warm it before I drop my pants.  :)
That took you a long time to answer me, Leonard, has your butt been iced to the seat for all this time?  :o

You're in Spain aren't you? Are you saying they have no means to heat their houses? Try a wooden seat or two water bottles to perk it up a bit. Or get yourself a young lover boy to do that for you!