Homosexuality!

[Hope]

You are comparing the same thing you are free to enjoy with your wife - sex and marriage - to all kinds of harmful, abusive, base behaviours. You seek to deny the right of two men or two women to declare and fulfil their love for one another in the name of the God of love. Do you not think that if this God exists then he is present in their love?

Rhi (and NS, for that matter), I am not comparing same-sex sex to heterosexual sex at all.   As someone who believes that humanity has been created with specific purposes in the mind of the Creator, I believe that same-sex sex runs counter to those purposes, in much the same way that things like illness, wrongdoing and disabilities - especially genetic ones - run counter to those purposes. 

NS is determined that I should be seen as comparing behaviour X with behaviour Y by having them in the same list; when I mention you, Susan D, Gonners, NS, Shaker, Alien, Jim, Judder, Johnny Canoe, KO and, say, Humph in a list, am I necessarily comparing you all?

So where is your love? When you are judged (as you believe you one day will be) do you not think it better to stand before your God and say that you allowed gay relationships out of love than criminalised them in your mind out of devotion to some words in a book? The Bible's a book, Hope. It's man-made. And using it to condemn gay relationships is idolatry.

Love also challenges people and their behaviour - its called discipline and is just as much a part of love as the 'warm and cuddly' stuff that you are referring to here.

As for doing anything 'out of devotion to some words in a book', you seem to misunderstand Christianity.  'The book' has its value, in that it gives one guidelines as to how to understand the world, but - as you will be aware - different people interpret it in different ways.  You get liberal theology from S. America which highlights the parts that refer to God's love for the poor, to prosperity theology from the States that highlights God's love for the wealthy and a host of 'theologies' in between.  My relationship isn't with a set of printed material; it is with the Creator of this world.

[Sriram]

Why leper and wiping out mankind?! That's a bit over the top. 

Sriram, supporters of the liberalisation of attitudes to homosexual practice have always used hyperpole in order to make their view appear to be more moderate and therefore acceptable than that of those who disagree with them.  Ironically, the suggestions for why people disagree are often so far from reality as to make one wonder what they really think behind the facade of liberalisation-speak.

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

[floo]

You are comparing the same thing you are free to enjoy with your wife - sex and marriage - to all kinds of harmful, abusive, base behaviours. You seek to deny the right of two men or two women to declare and fulfil their love for one another in the name of the God of love. Do you not think that if this God exists then he is present in their love?

Rhi (and NS, for that matter), I am not comparing same-sex sex to heterosexual sex at all.   As someone who believes that humanity has been created with specific purposes in the mind of the Creator, I believe that same-sex sex runs counter to those purposes, in much the same way that things like illness, wrongdoing and disabilities - especially genetic ones - run counter to those purposes. 

NS is determined that I should be seen as comparing behaviour X with behaviour Y by having them in the same list; when I mention you, Susan D, Gonners, NS, Shaker, Alien, Jim, Judder, Johnny Canoe, KO and, say, Humph in a list, am I necessarily comparing you all?

So where is your love? When you are judged (as you believe you one day will be) do you not think it better to stand before your God and say that you allowed gay relationships out of love than criminalised them in your mind out of devotion to some words in a book? The Bible's a book, Hope. It's man-made. And using it to condemn gay relationships is idolatry.

Love also challenges people and their behaviour - its called discipline and is just as much a part of love as the 'warm and cuddly' stuff that you are referring to here.

As for doing anything 'out of devotion to some words in a book', you seem to misunderstand Christianity.  'The book' has its value, in that it gives one guidelines as to how to understand the world, but - as you will be aware - different people interpret it in different ways.  You get liberal theology from S. America which highlights the parts that refer to God's love for the poor, to prosperity theology from the States that highlights God's love for the wealthy and a host of 'theologies' in between.  My relationship isn't with a set of printed material; it is with the Creator of this world.

Providing one is in a consensual adult relationship, gay or straight, and not cheating on a partner that is up to the people involved. If the deity doesn't like that it can stick where the sun don't shine, right up its bottom! 

[Nearly Sane]

Hope, If you just make a list of x, y, z, it is not clear that you are comparing things but when you make a list and say that they are offensive in the SAME WAY, it is clear you are comparing things. Further as when you have stated in the past that all sins, as you see them are equally as bad, given the two statements, then you are stating that homosexual acts are offensive in the same way as murder and equally as bad.

[Nearly Sane]

Why leper and wiping out mankind?! That's a bit over the top. 

Sriram, supporters of the liberalisation of attitudes to homosexual practice have always used hyperpole in order to make their view appear to be more moderate and therefore acceptable than that of those who disagree with them.  Ironically, the suggestions for why people disagree are often so far from reality as to make one wonder what they really think behind the facade of liberalisation-speak.

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

Can I just check what you are saying here, are you suggesting that should a minor state they felt same sex attraction, their parents could take the child for 'epigenetic therapy'?

[Rhiannon]

Rhiannon

Some actions seem to have more potential harm than others

Of course they do.

But are you saying that homosexual acts are intrinsically more harmful than hetero? On what basis?

[Rhiannon]

#157 Hope, you cannot dismiss love as 'warm and cuddly'. Is that your experience of family life? Is that your experience of responding to those in need with love?

What 'plan' does God have for us that puts gay relationships on the same footing as illness and disabilities?

If your God is really telling you that this is how the world is then it seems you have made him in your own image and to suit your own prejudices.

[Aruntraveller]

Sometimes Homosexuality can harm others.

Usually because people feel the need to try and be someone else, but it doesn't work for them and years later they have to "come out"

I'm not sure if it takes someone that long to come to terms with who they are, or whether they just feel pressured to having a partner of the opposite sex and kids.

I wouldn't say it doesn't hurt anyone, because it can.

But some of that is probably down to people trying to conform to other people's ideals.

It must still hurt their original partners though.

I have heard of cases where it is amicable but it is still considered a reflection of the "other half " if your husband/wife takes off with someone of the same sex.

It implies in some ways you weren't good enough.

That really is not homosexuality hurting other people - it is societal attitudes to homosexuality hurting other people.

[Sriram]

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

Can I just check what you are saying here, are you suggesting that should a minor state they felt same sex attraction, their parents could take the child for 'epigenetic therapy'?

If the treatment was safe and effective...yes...of course.   If a safe, effective and affordable treatment  was readily available...I bet you would get your son/daughter treated, if they showed homosexual tendencies.  So would most others. 

Most people might get all indignant about it now....but in a real situation they would also opt for it.  Where is the doubt?! The instinct for procreation and survival of ones genes is very strong you realize?! 

People have no option now so they are making the most of bad situation by telling themselves that its all 'love', diversity etc.   That is all.

[Nearly Sane]

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

Can I just check what you are saying here, are you suggesting that should a minor state they felt same sex attraction, their parents could take the child for 'epigenetic therapy'?

If the treatment was safe and effective...yes...of course.   If a safe, effective and affordable treatment  was readily available...I bet you would get your son/daughter treated, if they showed homosexual tendencies.  So would most others. 

Most people might get all indignant about it now....but in a real situation they would also opt for it.  Where is the doubt?! The instinct for procreation and survival of ones genes is very strong you realize?! 

People have no option now so they are making the most of bad situation by telling themselves that its all 'love', diversity etc.   That is all.

If I wanted my kid treated for heterosexuality and cured, would that be ok?

[Rhiannon]

# 165 Sriram,

Er, no. I have three children and their sexuality as they grow up is irrelevant to me. All I want is for them to feel happy in their own skin; seeking 'treatment' for something that doesn't need treating is setting them up for problems that can last a lifetime. It reminds me of the children - often girls- who get dragged off to slimming clubs and who end up with disordered eating.

I hope that as my children grow and form their own relationships that they will be fair, honest and equal in their dealings with others; the gender of those they fall in love with is irrelevant to me.

[Udayana]

Hi everyone,

I see that the discussion has moved on to necrophilia, bestiality, sex with machines and so on. And most people here don't seem to regard any of this as seriously wrong.

Well...I suppose if one believes that humans are mere accidental products of random gene variation and nothing more...it would seem that everyone is free to do what they want.... as long as it does not harm someone else...(there are courts you know!). 

Atheism and such ultra liberal views obviously go hand in hand.  (Could epigenetics be responsible for atheism...I wonder? That will be a different thread altogether I guess).

But if someone believes that life has a purpose, self control & discipline are important for spiritual growth and there is an absolute right & wrong....then, certain types of behavior that encourage lust and pleasure seeking for their own sake.....can be considered wrong.

Ok...getting back to my OP, though genes are now not considered responsible for homosexuality, epigenetics is probably the mechanism through which homosexuality gets generated.   Homosexuals can claim that its all in the epigenes and they did not choose to be homosexuals.... so its not a sin. Seems reasonable.

However, religious people could also claim that though the homosexual himself did not choose his sexuality...its never the less a factor of the lifestyle of their parents or grandparents. So...something has gone awry somewhere!   

The plus in all this is that if homosexuals choose to change their sexuality it probably can be done  through epigenetic therapy...though its very early days yet. 

Cheers.

Sriram

This is all still BS, results of mixing up different fields in an irrational, subjective way. The cause of "homosexuality" is not related to whether it is morally wrong or right or to any spiritual destination.

Homosexuality itself is not a binary on/off state. No doubt genetics, epigenetics and other environmental factors are involved - but this provides for a wide range of sexual preferences and behaviours including heterosexual ones. The science (facts and rules) that determine sexuality and might help us control it, will remain the same whether we know what they are or not - knowing what they are does not help us in trying to decide whether we can "choose" our sexuality or whether one "choice" is right or not. What if the excessive spiritual obsession of grandparents or parents was the factor that caused set the epigenetic switches that resulted in homosexual behaviours?

You have fixed ideas of what your spiritual destination is, which excludes gay relationships - but who are you to pass judgement on anyone else's spiritual destination or path of growth? Maybe God's plan is to end with the complete human population composed of gay muslims?

[Rhiannon]

Good post, Udayana.

[Sriram]

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

Can I just check what you are saying here, are you suggesting that should a minor state they felt same sex attraction, their parents could take the child for 'epigenetic therapy'?

If the treatment was safe and effective...yes...of course.   If a safe, effective and affordable treatment  was readily available...I bet you would get your son/daughter treated, if they showed homosexual tendencies.  So would most others. 

Most people might get all indignant about it now....but in a real situation they would also opt for it.  Where is the doubt?! The instinct for procreation and survival of ones genes is very strong you realize?! 

People have no option now so they are making the most of bad situation by telling themselves that its all 'love', diversity etc.   That is all.

If I wanted my kid treated for heterosexuality and cured, would that be ok?

That's your problem. Why are you asking me?  Please get them converted to homosexuals....by all means. How they would react later...don't ask me again.

[Udayana]

...
If I wanted my kid treated for heterosexuality and cured, would that be ok?

Indians, as they are going, would mostly choose male children, so with the resulting imbalance choosing to have them be gay would probably be best for their long term mental health.

[Nearly Sane]

Hope,

Yeah....I agree.  Its their memes reacting to a perceived threat to their survival. They go ballistic!

Why people have a problem with a possible treatment for homosexuality I cant understand!  These people probably picture themselves being dragged through the town bound in chains and then administered some injection against their will, as they are kicking and struggling...or some such thing. 

This thread is simply about the scientific reasons for homosexuality and a possible treatment. Nothing new about it. Such research has been going on for years. People should get used to it.

Some people claim that 'no one cares' for such treatment or some such rubbish. Thousands of mothers and fathers who see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals would surely care. It would be a 'God sent' for them.

And its not just the spiritual angle.  Even from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse. So..if they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children...its bound to be worrying.

Cheers.

Sriram

Can I just check what you are saying here, are you suggesting that should a minor state they felt same sex attraction, their parents could take the child for 'epigenetic therapy'?

If the treatment was safe and effective...yes...of course.   If a safe, effective and affordable treatment  was readily available...I bet you would get your son/daughter treated, if they showed homosexual tendencies.  So would most others. 

Most people might get all indignant about it now....but in a real situation they would also opt for it.  Where is the doubt?! The instinct for procreation and survival of ones genes is very strong you realize?! 

People have no option now so they are making the most of bad situation by telling themselves that its all 'love', diversity etc.   That is all.

If I wanted my kid treated for heterosexuality and cured, would that be ok?

That's your problem. Why are you asking me?  Please get them converted to homosexuals....by all means. How they would react later...don't ask me again.

I am asking you since you spent quite a lot of time stating what I was likely to do. Personally I would let my kids be what they were rather than imposing my idea of what their sexuality would be.

As a follow up if through a form of therapy epigenetic or otherwise, you were the parent of a girl, and you could choose to change her sex to male, would you?

[Sriram]

LOL! It gets stupider by the minute just to score a point!  You (and Udayana) are again digressing as a defense mechanism. It happens every single time with you and Udayana and Jakswan and OB and Prof W (though he is missing).  It never fails! 

Fine.... if you don't want to change your children.  Its nobody's problem but yours and them.

But don't speak for the millions of other people around the world who actually wish their child would be normal and marry and have children.  If they had an option...they would choose it.  You are no one to say that they shouldn't.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hi everyone,

Ok....the subject of homosexuality is always controversial and lots of people tend to get all charged up. This could be one such...(or maybe not). 

Here is my favorite subject of epignetics again.  They say that homosexuality could even be cured through epigenetic therapy. 

Alright...some people may feel that homosexuality is not...repeat not... a  disease and does not need to be cured!  But I tend to disagree.   

Here is some scientific stuff on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_theories_of_homosexuality

************************************************************************************

Epigenetic theories of homosexuality concerns the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence.

One team of researchers examined the effects of epi-marks buffering XX fetuses and XY fetuses from certain androgen exposure and used published data on fetal androgen signaling and gene regulation through non-genetic changes in DNA packaging to develop a new model for homosexuality.[2] The researchers found that stronger than average epi-marks, epigenomes that are wrapped tightly around the DNA sequence, convert sexual preference in individuals without altering genitalia or sexual identity.[3]

This research gives support to the hypothesis that homosexuality stems from the under expression of certain genes on the DNA sequence involved with sexual preferences. This theory as well as other concepts involved with epi-marks, twin studies, and fetal androgen signaling will be explored here.

 A "gay" gene does not produce homosexuality, rather, epigenetic modifications act as temporary "switches" that regulate how the genes are expressed[7] Only twenty percent of identical twins are both homosexual which leads to the hypothesis that even though identical twins share the same DNA, homosexuality is created by something else rather than the genes. Epigenetic transformation allows the on and off switch of certain genes, subsequently shaping how cells respond to androgen signaling, which is critical in sexual development.

This demonstrates that gene coding for these epi-marks can spread in the population because they benefit the development and fitness of the parent but only rarely escape erasure, leading to mismatched sexual preference in offspring.

Following a late 2012 publication on possible epigenetic origins of homosexuality,[10] some people[who?] have suggested that it might be possible to alter one's sexual orientation with epigenetic therapy,[11] similarly to treatment of diabetes, cancer or schizophrenia.

************************************************************************************


This also highlights the fact that lifestyle and environmental factors (that's what epigenetics is all about) could be producing homosexual tendencies.   

For information.

Cheers.

Sriram

Why on earth would you want to 'cure' sexuality even if it were possible.

This is a bit like to old fashioned and highly damaging view that left handed people should be taught to be right handed.

[Rhiannon]

LOL! It gets stupider by the minute just to score a point!  You (and Udayana) are again digressing as a defense mechanism. It happens every single time with you and Udayana and Jakswan and OB and Prof W (though he is missing).  It never fails! 

Fine.... if you don't want to change your children.  Its nobody's problem but yours and them.

But don't speak for the millions of other people around the world who actually wish their child would be normal and marry and have children.  If they had an option...they would choose it.  You are no one to say that they shouldn't.

There you go again, Sriram, talking about 'normal'. What is 'normal'? And what right to parents have to impose their view of 'normal' on their children? Anyone would think the only purpose of having kids was to make their parents look good in the eyes of others.

[ProfessorDavey]

But don't speak for the millions of other people around the world who actually wish their child would be normal and marry and have children.  If they had an option...they would choose it.  You are no one to say that they shouldn't.

Note my emphasis.

Why on earth is being gay not normal. It is perfectly normal as far as I am concerned.

Sure we allow parents a very significant level of freedom in how they bring up their children, but not complete freedom as society has a right (really a duty) to step in if the approach of parents to their children is damaging or abusive. To try to force your child to be a different sexuality than they actually are is, in my view, highly abusive.

[Nearly Sane]

LOL! It gets stupider by the minute just to score a point!  You (and Udayana) are again digressing as a defense mechanism. It happens every single time with you and Udayana and Jakswan and OB and Prof W (though he is missing).  It never fails! 

Fine.... if you don't want to change your children.  Its nobody's problem but yours and them.

But don't speak for the millions of other people around the world who actually wish their child would be normal and marry and have children.  If they had an option...they would choose it.  You are no one to say that they shouldn't.

I am just trying to find out what your ideas are - if you don't want to answer, that's ok.

As to who am I to say what parents should be able to do, only the same person that might have a personal opinion on the rights of the child being equal to the parent in this case. If I could epigentically change my child to being an atheist and a liberal, I don't think I should be allowed to. Same for sexuality.

[Udayana]

Re treatments for homosexuality/heterosexuality

Probably such treatments, if they become possible, before the age of consent would be illegal as against children's rights - but compare with legislation on choosing genetic characteristics or sex change/modification treatments.

I've little doubt a huge range of genetic engineering, treatments and options will become possible but sad to see that very little has been done to set up safety and ethical frameworks within which they can be handled. This is so even for GM foods which are now becoming widespread.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed, Udayana, though part of the issue is that science is a quicker and less predictable discipline than law. It's not possible, I would suggest, to put in place appropriate legislation before we encounter some of the the issues. We try to modulate scientific advancement and I think sometimes are overly worried about unknown unknowns rather than professing on the known unknowns.

[wigginhall]

Wow, epigenetic engineering of children.   Completely insane.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[Owlswing]

Hi everyone,

I see that the discussion has moved on to necrophilia, bestiality, sex with machines and so on. And most people here don't seem to regard any of this as seriously wrong.

Well...I suppose if one believes that humans are mere accidental products of random gene variation and nothing more...it would seem that everyone is free to do what they want.... as long as it does not harm someone else...(there are courts you know!). 

Atheism and such ultra liberal views obviously go hand in hand.  (Could epigenetics be responsible for atheism...I wonder? That will be a different thread altogether I guess).

But if someone believes that life has a purpose, self control & discipline are important for spiritual growth and there is an absolute right & wrong....then, certain types of behavior that encourage lust and pleasure seeking for their own sake.....can be considered wrong.

Ok...getting back to my OP, though genes are now not considered responsible for homosexuality, epigenetics is probably the mechanism through which homosexuality gets generated.   Homosexuals can claim that its all in the epigenes and they did not choose to be homosexuals.... so its not a sin. Seems reasonable.

However, religious people could also claim that though the homosexual himself did not choose his sexuality...its never the less a factor of the lifestyle of their parents or grandparents. So...something has gone awry somewhere!   

The plus in all this is that if homosexuals choose to change their sexuality it probably can be done  through epigenetic therapy...though its very early days yet. 

Cheers.

Sriram

This is all still BS, results of mixing up different fields in an irrational, subjective way. The cause of "homosexuality" is not related to whether it is morally wrong or right or to any spiritual destination.

Homosexuality itself is not a binary on/off state. No doubt genetics, epigenetics and other environmental factors are involved - but this provides for a wide range of sexual preferences and behaviours including heterosexual ones. The science (facts and rules) that determine sexuality and might help us control it, will remain the same whether we know what they are or not - knowing what they are does not help us in trying to decide whether we can "choose" our sexuality or whether one "choice" is right or not. What if the excessive spiritual obsession of grandparents or parents was the factor that caused set the epigenetic switches that resulted in homosexual behaviours?

You have fixed ideas of what your spiritual destination is, which excludes gay relationships - but who are you to pass judgement on anyone else's spiritual destination or path of growth? Maybe God's plan is to end with the complete human population composed of gay muslims?

Damn good post - ESPECIALLY te last paragraph!