Homosexuality!

[Shaker]

I'd pay not to Sorry, where were we?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And I had kids spit in my face and call me a Paki in public. Apart from that there were the usual daily pressures to speak a certain way, to eradicate my accent, to fit in etc. - pressure to conform is part of life - as a woman I am also under pressure to conform to gender stereotypes and risking being assaulted goes with the territory.

I still think individuals should be free to choose their individual personal identity - and not be forced to conform to the pressure to follow someone else's diversity agenda.

So if there were a process available to change you from your Asian appearance to a White European appearance you would approve of the freedom of choice for others to take that option?

As far as I can tell people change their appearance in line with their personal ideas of beauty - I think other people's preferences in terms of appearance should be their choice so yes, to be consistent about freedom of choice, if there were no major adverse effects or risks to the individual I would support freedom of choice, whether people want to go from Asian to European to Oriental to whatever, and regardless of racism.

 I think we have laws to protect people from discrimination and I would use those laws to counter actual racism, not the imagined racism inferred from someone exercising their freedom of choice to change their racial identity.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I still think individuals should be free to choose their individual personal identity - and not be forced to conform to the pressure to follow someone else's diversity agenda.

Where is the agenda being driven from?

Why is it necessary to think that people should change their sexuality?

I never said people SHOULD change their sexuality. I am saying people SHOULD have the freedom of choice to change their sexual identity if they want to. I am saying individuals don't owe their peers allegiance or loyalty to not change their sexuality, whether it is from straight to gay or gay to straight or anything in between.

[Shaker]

I think we have laws to protect people from discrimination ...

Good stuff.

I'm delighted that they work.

Oh, wait ...

I would use those laws to counter actual racism, not the imagined racism

Interesting that you say nothing about actual disease but implicitly support/suck up to Sriram's idea of imaginary disease (aka homosexuality). But so it goes.

[Shaker]

And I had kids spit in my face and call me a Paki in public. Apart from that there were the usual daily pressures to speak a certain way, to eradicate my accent, to fit in etc. - pressure to conform is part of life - as a woman I am also under pressure to conform to gender stereotypes and risking being assaulted goes with the territory.

I think you should undergo epigenetic therapy to become a white-skinned RP-speaking man.

I feel sure that Sriram would approve.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think we have laws to protect people from discrimination ...

Good stuff.

I'm delighted that they work.

Oh, wait ...

I would use those laws to counter actual racism, not the imagined racism

Interesting that you say nothing about actual disease but implicitly support/suck up to Sriram's idea of imaginary disease (aka homosexuality). But so it goes.

I see you've still got nothing to offer other than your unevidenced guessing Shaker - how's your new religion of forced conformity going by the way?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And I had kids spit in my face and call me a Paki in public. Apart from that there were the usual daily pressures to speak a certain way, to eradicate my accent, to fit in etc. - pressure to conform is part of life - as a woman I am also under pressure to conform to gender stereotypes and risking being assaulted goes with the territory.

I think you should undergo epigenetic therapy to become a white-skinned RP-speaking man.

I feel sure that Sriram would approve.

What's an RP- speaking man?

If the treatment is ever developed I will exercise my freedom of choice to decide what I should or shouldn't do for myself.

Unless of course your new religion of conformity actually takes off Shaker in which case I guess you get some kind of special privilege to decide for everyone.

[Rhiannon]

Received Pronunciation.

The problem is that as soon as society says it is acceptable for such therapies to be allowed, there are those who will decide it is desirable. Dr Nazeem Mahmood was successful and happy in a relationship, yet he still took his own life after his mother suggested he get therapy to 'cure' his homosexuality. That wasn't a choice he wanted to make, but one his family decided was ok to pressure him into.

And no doubt it would be available privately. What happens then - adverts on the Tube? Promotion by the churches?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Received Pronunciation.

The problem is that as soon as society says it is acceptable for such therapies to be allowed, there are those who will decide it is desirable. Dr Nazeem Mahmood was successful and happy in a relationship, yet he still took his own life after his mother suggested he get therapy to 'cure' his homosexuality. That wasn't a choice he wanted to make, but one his family decided was ok to pressure him into.

And no doubt it would be available privately. What happens then - adverts on the Tube? Promotion by the churches?

People take their own life because they are unhappy for all kinds of reasons. It doesn't become a bigger or smaller tragedy because their reason for killing themselves was because they did not perceive enough acceptance about their sexuality. They are depressed so their perceptions are skewed anyway by their depression.

 A friend of mine hanged himself by tying a belt round his neck and jumping off his balcony in Australia when he was 22 because he thought he was ugly, which was crazy as not only was he good-looking and a great dancer but he was also a really sweet guy - but when he looked at himself he felt unhappy and unaccepted. Also, society puts lots of pressure on people about their looks. Yet we have whole industries geared towards providing services to allow people to change the way they look. So this whole slippery slope argument is along the same lines as some people gave for opposing gay marriage - it's restricting individual freedom based on guessing.

Restricting advertising is a separate issue - you could treat it the same way as cigarette advertising. Maybe we should also get rid of adverts for cosmetic procedures from the tube?

[wigginhall]

Received Pronunciation.

The problem is that as soon as society says it is acceptable for such therapies to be allowed, there are those who will decide it is desirable. Dr Nazeem Mahmood was successful and happy in a relationship, yet he still took his own life after his mother suggested he get therapy to 'cure' his homosexuality. That wasn't a choice he wanted to make, but one his family decided was ok to pressure him into.

And no doubt it would be available privately. What happens then - adverts on the Tube? Promotion by the churches?

Well, the current gay conversion therapies seem to start from the premise that there is something wrong with being gay, and also offer various bizarre theories, e.g. gays were abused as children.  That is why they are banned by professional organizations - they are simply dangerous.   Of course, they are not illegal but I would warn anyone against them.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

 Pretty sure there is no peer-reviewed evidence that current gay conversion therapies work - so it would be misleading for them to claim that they do.

Some people have self-reported after therapy that they have less attraction to people of the same sex than they did before, but there is no long term follow up and the process of reducing their attraction seems to be based on telling them they should feel bad about themselves, which presumably isn't how therapy is supposed to work if the end result is that the people having therapy feel negative rather than positive about themselves.

My point is why is homosexuality a special case, compared to everyone else who is allowed to change aspects of themselves based on their freedom of choice.

Also, we currently have safeguards for women who want to be sterilised at a young age - their motivation and reasoning is closely questioned, they are offered counselling and after this they are often refused the procedure as doctors are convinced they might change their mind later. The same process could be applied to people who want to change their sexuality or racial features.

[wigginhall]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want.  The reason that conversion therapy has been banned in the professional organisations is that it has been found in practice to be homophobic, and also often offered bizarre explanations for being gay.  In the UK, the Pilkington case caused waves, as Ms Pilkington was offering the idea that being abused as a child made you gay.  She was struck off, and all organizations termed it unethical.   But it's not illegal, although I think it should be for minors.

But many therapists will help people explore their sexuality, but without a negative view of one particular identity.  Most of the conversion people I have heard of are right-wing Christians, who view gay as sinful - not really a helpful therapeutic stance.

[trippymonkey]

<I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want>

Many here seem to think going from gay to straight, or the other 'way', is much like having your hair dyed a different colour !?!?!?!
I hardly think it's as simple as that.

If it IS then you weren't 'gay' to start with or were 'just experimenting'!!!!

[Spud]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want.  The reason that conversion therapy has been banned in the professional organisations is that it has been found in practice to be homophobic, and also often offered bizarre explanations for being gay. 

Given your first statement, and assuming there are people who would like to change, wouldn't it be better to regulate conversion therapy so as to avoid bizarre forms of it and homophobia?

[Nearly Sane]

Lovely but very sad piece of writing on the upcoming referendum in Ireland


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ursula-halligan-referendum-pointed-me-towards-telling-the-truth-about-myself-1.2212960#.VVWE6IMWoeY.twitter

[wigginhall]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want.  The reason that conversion therapy has been banned in the professional organisations is that it has been found in practice to be homophobic, and also often offered bizarre explanations for being gay. 

Given your first statement, and assuming there are people who would like to change, wouldn't it be better to regulate conversion therapy so as to avoid bizarre forms of it and homophobia?

Since many therapists and counsellors work with clients who are experiencing sexual confusion, conflict, and so on, there is no need for a specific gay to straight method, no more than a straight to gay one.   All the conversion therapies I have come across are homophobic and bizarre.  The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

[floo]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want.  The reason that conversion therapy has been banned in the professional organisations is that it has been found in practice to be homophobic, and also often offered bizarre explanations for being gay. 

Given your first statement, and assuming there are people who would like to change, wouldn't it be better to regulate conversion therapy so as to avoid bizarre forms of it and homophobia?

Since many therapists and counsellors work with clients who are experiencing sexual confusion, conflict, and so on, there is no need for a specific gay to straight method, no more than a straight to gay one.   All the conversion therapies I have come across are homophobic and bizarre.  The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

I suspect anyone wanting to change their sexuality from gay to straight is likely to be under pressure of some kind to do so. It should be illegal for religious nutters, or anyone else for that matter, to put pressure on gays to get 'cured'!

[Harrowby Hall]

Since many therapists and counsellors work with clients who are experiencing sexual confusion, conflict, and so on, there is no need for a specific gay to straight method, no more than a straight to gay one.   All the conversion therapies I have come across are homophobic and bizarre.  The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

I know that this is broadening the topic somewhat, but I came across the following on a website called Sexual Intelligence written by an American sex therapist and sociologist called Marty Klein. These were actually points that he was raising in a talk at a conference on Science and Skepticism. He was talking about religion's attempt to take over public policy - which he says is particularly successful in matters concerning sexuality. It does seem appropriate.

Organized religion has successfully marketed itself as Morality Experts.

Organized religion has persuaded many people that sex is mostly about morality—and therefore, they are society's Sex Experts.

Organized religion has persuaded many people that sexual morality is about limiting choices (as opposed to, say, ethical decision-making or transparency).

Therefore, when organized religion gets political power, it invariably limits everyone's choices concerning sexuality.

Organized religion is aggressive in including a huge number of human enterprises within its supervision of our sexuality.

[wigginhall]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should not change your sexuality, if you want.  The reason that conversion therapy has been banned in the professional organisations is that it has been found in practice to be homophobic, and also often offered bizarre explanations for being gay. 

Given your first statement, and assuming there are people who would like to change, wouldn't it be better to regulate conversion therapy so as to avoid bizarre forms of it and homophobia?

Since many therapists and counsellors work with clients who are experiencing sexual confusion, conflict, and so on, there is no need for a specific gay to straight method, no more than a straight to gay one.   All the conversion therapies I have come across are homophobic and bizarre.  The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

I suspect anyone wanting to change their sexuality from gay to straight is likely to be under pressure of some kind to do so. It should be illegal for religious nutters, or anyone else for that matter, to put pressure on gays to get 'cured'!

I don't think you can make it illegal, but I agree that the whole idea of conversion is sinister, and actually dangerous.   It should be illegal for minors, who are particularly susceptible to suicide.

But also, you can't have dodgy sounding religious types setting themselves up as  therapists, it's a specialized field, requiring a lot of training.  Conversion is now banned in all training bodies, except the dodgy ones.

[wigginhall]

Since many therapists and counsellors work with clients who are experiencing sexual confusion, conflict, and so on, there is no need for a specific gay to straight method, no more than a straight to gay one.   All the conversion therapies I have come across are homophobic and bizarre.  The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

I know that this is broadening the topic somewhat, but I came across the following on a website called Sexual Intelligence written by an American sex therapist and sociologist called Marty Klein. These were actually points that he was raising in a talk at a conference on Science and Skepticism. He was talking about religion's attempt to take over public policy - which he says is particularly successful in matters concerning sexuality. It does seem appropriate.

Organized religion has successfully marketed itself as Morality Experts.

Organized religion has persuaded many people that sex is mostly about morality—and therefore, they are society's Sex Experts.

Organized religion has persuaded many people that sexual morality is about limiting choices (as opposed to, say, ethical decision-making or transparency).

Therefore, when organized religion gets political power, it invariably limits everyone's choices concerning sexuality.

Organized religion is aggressive in including a huge number of human enterprises within its supervision of our sexuality.

Very interesting. Well, conversion therapy showed various Christian groups, especially in the US, claiming some sort of expertise.  But a lot of their 'explanations' of gay are lame and antiquated, and you can feel the drive of their prejudice humming away, (gay is sin or disease or pathology).  A complete disaster for a confused youth or adult, and very dangerous.

[Spud]

The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

The Christian view is not that homosexuals should convert to heterosexuality, but that Christians who experience same-sex attraction should abstain from homosexual practices.

[Brownie]

Exactly but it does seem extremely unfair to expect people, who are a bit "different to us" in one area, to be deprived of a relationship.  Surely churches, despite officially frowning on the practice of homosexuality, must be glad that the law has changed and society is more tolerant, thus allowing gay people to have monogamous, long term and open partnerships rather than sneaking about.  Besides which there are loads of gay clergy, many of whom have a "friend" who lives or stays with them, everyone knows that.

[ippy]

The idea of conversion is itself homophobic, and often practised by right-wing Christians, startlingly ignorant about sexuality, gender, and so on.

The Christian view is not that homosexuals should convert to heterosexuality, but that Christians who experience same-sex attraction should abstain from homosexual practices.

I suppose there isn't any point of view more regressive than this bronze age one.

Haven't you got some sort of educational degree Spud?

ippy

[jeremyp]

I wish someone would create a therapy for old age 💊.

It already exists, it's called death.

[ippy]

I wish someone would create a therapy for old age 💊.

It already exists, it's called death.

Spot on j p, couldn't help laughing, there's something about cruelty in humour, like it.

ippy