Author Topic: What Is God Made From?  (Read 155278 times)

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2015, 04:47:22 PM »
I like black but I'm always hopeful that they'll invent something darker.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2015, 05:00:47 PM »
I have always liked blue.

Me too! He's my secret love. Where is he , btw?

I'll tell your partner on you! ;D

Leonard James

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2015, 05:05:39 PM »
I have always liked blue.

Me too! He's my secret love. Where is he , btw?

I'll tell your partner on you! ;D

Oooooooh! You...you...you...THING! >:(

Jack Knave

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2015, 08:17:35 PM »
God is spirit, though how you define that exactly, I don't know.

Don't you think that you ought to be able to define something before you purport to believe in that something? Otherwise what is it that you claim to believe in and how do you know?
Should I need to be able to define "what constitutes the form of God"? If so, why? God is not flesh and blood, atoms and molecules like us, but I don't have to be able to describe his "form". It would be great to be able to do so, but there is the fact that if I, of finite human mind, were able to fully describe him, he would not be truly God.
So your belief in God is based on a book and your 'infallible' logic?
No.
The 'no' answer requires a clarification of why you do believe. Pretty please  :)
That's getting rather off topic, but here you go.
Why should I believe in God?

It is often assumed, by Christians as well as non-Christians, that there are no concrete reasons for believing that God exists. Christianity has suffered from a reliance on feelings or “just having faith” for about a century. However, there are good reasons to believe in God’s existence.
Notes:
1)   Believing in God is more than just believing he exists; it is trusting him, though to do that you need to believe he exists. Do you believe in Ed Milliband? Nick Clegg? David Cameron?
2)   Such believing in God requires more than an intellectual assent, something more than just accepting evidence. Whether we put our trust in him is very much bound up with our response to him telling us we are sinners. Do we respond to that by accepting it or rejecting it?
3)   None of the items below are an argument against biological evolution.

Six Reasons to Believe in God (for a Christian) and Five Reasons to Believe in God (for an atheist):
1)   Argument from contingency (Leibnitz’s argument).
2)   Kalam cosmological argument.
3)   Argument from design.
4)   Argument from objective morals.
5)   The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
6)   The internal witness of the Holy Spirit (Christians only).
These arguments are based on those put forward by Dr. William Lane Craig who has a really good website at www.reasonablefaith.org.


Please note that some of this may well be over your head. If so, please stick with it. Even if it does not all sink it, it may show you that there are some carefully thought out arguments that exist which some people understand and which they believe to give good reasons to believe God exists.

Stuff in grey boxes is heavy stuff

 


1)   Argument from contingency (Leibnitz’s argument)
This is the most complicated argument we will be looking ........and everything else that followed
Alan the Alien

Thank you for that but I expected something more personal to your life and circumstances but not necessarily intrinsically over revealing.
1] What, something different from Christians being aware through the Holy Spirit that they are sons and daughters of God? See #6. If you are wondering more about how I came to be a Christian then, very, very briefly it came about through a discussion group at university (Trinity College, Cambridge) where another non-Christian and I met up with a couple of Christians for a number of Wednesday(?) evenings for several weeks. I got to the point where it too more "faith" to believe the Christian God didn't exist than it did to believe he did exist. I got to the point where I had to do something about it even though I was not 100% certain about it all. As I've looked at stuff over the 37 years or so since then I have become ever more convinced intellectually. There is also the personal experience side.
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The problem with the philosophical stuff, which I understand, is that it only points to "Something" and not to God, let alone to your Christian God. This "Something" is just some nebulous unknown, no characteristics or predicates can be assigned to it. It is a total unknown. So all these argument are of no use to you for your specific situation as a Christian.
2] Apart from #5 which is about Jesus Christ? If he was raised from the dead then it points clearly to his claims about himself being true.
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So your formal logical statement about God and the existence of the universe needs a clarification and definition of your use of the word God.

3] Just go with "God" as people generally use that term here in the UK. If you want finer detail, go with what Jesus claimed and what the NT says.
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And just to point the flaw in it the claim that science says there's no explanation for the universe isn't true,

4] Where did I claim "that science says there's no explanation for the universe"? I've looked back through my post and can't find it there.
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scientists says they don't know. And they wouldn't link any statement to this with the concept or word God.

5] That would be because, if they are standing in the role of scientists, then I agree they wouldn't say that. Science is methodologically naturalistic. It is not equipped to make statements about God.
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The Jesus stuff I have argued against before. Something so flimsy i.e. not being a personal eye witness to this makes it invalid.

6] Would you please explain that claim a bit further. Ta.
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There could thousands of reason why this came to be written down,

7] So what. If one reason has, say a 12.5% chance of being correct, and another a 6.25% chance and another a 3.125% chance and so on, you can have an infinite number of reasons and still 75% confident that the accounts are true.
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reason we can not even imagine - unknown unknowns and so forth.

8] That applies to absolutely everything. You might not be real, but instead an emanation from the plant Org. Possibilities come cheap. What we need is probabilities.
Quote

6. is about emotions. I don't mean this to be derogatory or dismissive as emotions provide use with value-judgements for us to live by and so on. But all this is about our psychology and being social animals.

9] Thanks. I accept it as meant the way you say. However, why do you think it is about emotions? I've not mentioned emotions and didn't intend to imply anything emotional, so would you explain why you think it is an emotional thing. Ta.
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I'll look at the numbers thing, at the end, later.

Many thanks, Jack.

10] That's fine. I'd better look at them again myself!
1] You can ignore this as we have covered this else where.

2] For me that's a big if. The Jesus bit you have included in the list of your 6 and the witness of the HS are not philosophy and should not be grouped with the philosophical arguments. So my "Something" still applies as the philosophical arguments do not lead to anything remotely that could be called God, as these Gods relate to concepts/definitions set out by the various religions.

3] That doesn't help. Any religion could say that about their God and outlook - "just go with our definition". You go from the general (in the philosophical arguments) to the specific (that is your Christian God definition). This is disingenuous and deceitful. It is moving the goal posts to suit your ends.

4] Actually it is what you claim atheists say or put forward - "This is logically equivalent to an argument often put forward by atheists that if (since) God does not exist, the universe has no explanation."

Who says this? It's rubbish as it makes no sense.

5] OK

6] I wasn't there to see it, is what I'm saying and I have had nothing to indicate to me from experience to show anything of the Christian God and the actuality of Jesus even in what they call spiritual form.

7] I don't follow this. Looks more like sophistry and playing with words than anything else. By the way my position on probability is that it doesn't exist. Something will happen or it will not i.e. probability of 1 or zero.

8] Where or what I am is of no consequence for me as I did not choose to come into this existence. All I know is that I appear to myself to be of such and such constitution, and that is that.

What I'm saying is we can not know what caused the people to write the manuscripts or to perceive the events it claims to account for in the way they did. There are numerous unknown way in which this could have happened.

9] and 10] are on 158. I hope this makes things a little clearer.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:02:49 PM by Jack Knave »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2015, 08:23:30 PM »
I have always liked blue.

Me too! He's my secret love. Where is he , btw?
Mine is Richard Dawkins.

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2015, 08:34:41 PM »
No Vlad, Len said "secret."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Jack Knave

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2015, 08:35:53 PM »
Alien

So to carry on, and it seems there is not much left.

9] We've kind of gone though this area already and no doubt come to it again so ignore this one.

10] I did add/edit a comment about the numbers thing (fine turning of the universe), in my post above, after I posted it but you got there before I did this. Post 137.



« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:07:36 PM by Jack Knave »

horsethorn

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #157 on: May 09, 2015, 09:26:56 PM »

Mine is Richard Dawkins.

I'm sure Harris will be upset about that.

Welcome back, Vlad ;)

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torridon

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #158 on: May 10, 2015, 07:02:38 AM »

torridon

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #159 on: May 10, 2015, 07:27:47 AM »
Anyway, what's your favourite colour ?
purple

Nah, just kiddin'

The point about favourite colour is that in a free will scenario you would be able to choose which colour you prefer. In saying purple you are expressing something about your nature but we do not have the freedom to choose our nature. Every choice we make is an expression of our nature and we are tied to that.  It makes no sense to claim to be able to prefer something that is not your preference, that is just as circular as you claiming that you can think a thought before you thought it, or you got out of bed in the morning before you got out of bed.

We do have an immense amount of freedom but not total complete freedom.  It's truer to life to think in terms of degrees of freedom, thus a potato plant has little freedom, it cannot get up and go for a walk, but a sparrow has more freedom than a potato and chimpanzee has more freedom than a sparrow and a human has more freedom than a chimp. We feel as if we have total freedom because the number of options that we can envisage at any moment is arguably near infinite, but that says nothing about the mechanisms by which we decide on one course of action out of the multitude available to us. We make decisions courtesy of flesh and blood biology, through a system of weighted neural networks. Don't know if you've ever done any neural network programming, its quite different to traditional linear programming, but it is still at the end of the day a methodology that takes inputs and delivers an output, an output that is an appropriate function of its inputs. There would be no point in a system that delivered total freedom, in which the outputs are unrelated to the inputs. We are tied such that our responses are appropriate to our needs. If you are faced with an out of control car hurtling your way, appropriate responses might be to leap to the left or leap to the right, but there would be no advantage to us in having the freedom to decide to start baking some fudge brownies, or plan an insurrection against the monarchy.  (Total) free will would be a disaster for any species that evolved it. It would he headed for extinction in no time at all.  What we do have, is something far far better, we make choices within the constraints of our nature, that is a good thing, it keeps us safe, whilst having the feeling of total freedom, which inspires us, motivates us, and keeps us happy.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 07:32:46 AM by torridon »

Leonard James

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #160 on: May 10, 2015, 07:39:31 AM »
Anyway, what's your favourite colour ?
purple

Nah, just kiddin'

The point about favourite colour is that in a free will scenario you would be able to choose which colour you prefer. In saying purple you are expressing something about your nature but we do not have the freedom to choose our nature. Every choice we make is an expression of our nature and we are tied to that.  It makes no sense to claim to be able to prefer something that is not your preference, that is just as circular as you claiming that you can think a thought before you thought it, or you got out of bed in the morning before you got out of bed.

We do have an immense amount of freedom but not total complete freedom.  It's truer to life to think in terms of degrees of freedom, thus a potato plant has little freedom, it cannot get up and go for a walk, but a sparrow has more freedom than a potato and chimpanzee has more freedom than a sparrow and a human has more freedom than a chimp. We feel as if we have total freedom because the number of options that we can envisage at any moment is arguably near infinite, but that says nothing about the mechanisms by which we decide on one course of action out of the multitude available to us. We make decisions courtesy of flesh and blood biology, through a system of weighted neural networks. Don't know if you've ever done any neural network programming, its quite different to traditional linear programming, but it is still at the end of the day a methodology that takes inputs and delivers an output, an output that is an appropriate function of its inputs. There would be no point in a system that delivered total freedom, in which the outputs are unrelated to the inputs. We are tied such that our responses are appropriate to our needs. If you are faced with an out of control car hurtling your way, appropriate responses might be to leap to the left or leap to the right, but there would be no advantage to us in having the freedom to decide to start baking some fudge brownies, or plan an insurrection against the monarchy.  (Total) free will would be a disaster for any species that evolved it. It would he headed for extinction in no time at all.  What we do have, is something far far better, we make choices within the constraints of our nature, that is a good thing, it keeps us safe, whilst having the feeling of total freedom, which inspires us, motivates us, and keeps us happy.

The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

torridon

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #161 on: May 10, 2015, 08:50:36 AM »
The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 08:52:17 AM by torridon »

Leonard James

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #162 on: May 10, 2015, 12:36:09 PM »
The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.

I am not "overriding myself", Torri, whatever that means. As you rightly say, myself is my brain. I am just pointing out that I (my brain), is quite capable of free will, and can choose to do what my common sense tells me to do, or behave in an entirely different manner.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #163 on: May 10, 2015, 12:54:56 PM »
The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.
The fault in your argument Torridon is that you talk of the brain as some kind of monolith.
If not Trinitarian we are certainly ''multitarian'' as evidenced by the kind of inner dialogue and weighing up and having an internal referee in such internal debate. Now that may be the brain but it is certainly misleading to talk of ourselves as just being a brain which as ani ful kno is that big walnutty thing.

ad_orientem

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #164 on: May 10, 2015, 05:27:38 PM »
The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.

What the hell does "separate entity" mean, as if the soul was some kind of foreign body?
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Leonard James

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #165 on: May 10, 2015, 07:38:29 PM »
The point that you are missing, Torri, is that no matter what method you favour to arrive at your conclusion, we can always override it and do the opposite.

That is free will.

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.

What the hell does "separate entity" mean, as if the soul was some kind of foreign body?

Well, if it ain't the brain, and it ain't any other discernible part of the human body, it has to be a foreign body, doesn't it now?

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2015, 09:20:31 PM »
What the hell does "separate entity" mean, as if the soul was some kind of foreign body?
If you believe in a conscious, personal afterlife - as I assume you do - then surely you are by definition a believer in a separable soul: stuck to the body during life, separated at the point of death to go off who knows where to do who knows what.
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torridon

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #167 on: May 11, 2015, 07:48:47 AM »

I'll take that as evidence that you still haven't quite got theism out of your hair yet, Len.  A theist like Alan will talk like that because he believes in a soul which can override the brain.  But as an atheist, you know that here is no such thing, no separate entity living inside you that can override your brain.  You are your brain, and to claim that you can override yourself is a meaningless claim.

I am not "overriding myself", Torri, whatever that means. As you rightly say, myself is my brain. I am just pointing out that I (my brain), is quite capable of free will, and can choose to do what my common sense tells me to do, or behave in an entirely different manner.

You're running with a rather trivial definition of free will there; we all experience inner conflicts that we might characterise as thinking with the head versus thinking from the heart and so forth.  We resolve those sorts of decisions within the same neurobiology framework as all other decisions.  The more profound issue is whether the apparent freedom we feel in decision making amounts to true freedom in an otherwise largely deterministic universe, or is it an illusion arising out of the complex system in our head.  Has natural selection somehow wrought a decision making machine in human heads that defies the laws of physics and chemistry and biology and delivered us a get-out-of-determinism-free card ? I don't see how that could be possible; if you model the brain as a computation device that takes inputs and delivers appropriate outputs there is no way in theory that such a device would produce outputs that are free of its inputs, and more to the point, there would be no point, no value, in such an outcome even if it were possible. Our brains are soft wired computation devices that facilitate making optimal decisions in any given circumstance, and 'freedom' in that process would be both impossible and undesirable.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 07:54:04 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2015, 08:38:38 AM »
The point about favourite colour is that in a free will scenario you would be able to choose which colour you prefer. In saying purple you are expressing something about your nature but we do not have the freedom to choose our nature. Every choice we make is an expression of our nature and we are tied to that.  It makes no sense to claim to be able to prefer something that is not your preference, that is just as circular as you claiming that you can think a thought before you thought it, or you got out of bed in the morning before you got out of bed.

We do have an immense amount of freedom but not total complete freedom.  It's truer to life to think in terms of degrees of freedom, thus a potato plant has little freedom, it cannot get up and go for a walk, but a sparrow has more freedom than a potato and chimpanzee has more freedom than a sparrow and a human has more freedom than a chimp. We feel as if we have total freedom because the number of options that we can envisage at any moment is arguably near infinite, but that says nothing about the mechanisms by which we decide on one course of action out of the multitude available to us. We make decisions courtesy of flesh and blood biology, through a system of weighted neural networks. Don't know if you've ever done any neural network programming, its quite different to traditional linear programming, but it is still at the end of the day a methodology that takes inputs and delivers an output, an output that is an appropriate function of its inputs. There would be no point in a system that delivered total freedom, in which the outputs are unrelated to the inputs. We are tied such that our responses are appropriate to our needs. If you are faced with an out of control car hurtling your way, appropriate responses might be to leap to the left or leap to the right, but there would be no advantage to us in having the freedom to decide to start baking some fudge brownies, or plan an insurrection against the monarchy.  (Total) free will would be a disaster for any species that evolved it. It would he headed for extinction in no time at all.  What we do have, is something far far better, we make choices within the constraints of our nature, that is a good thing, it keeps us safe, whilst having the feeling of total freedom, which inspires us, motivates us, and keeps us happy.
The real freedom we have is to choose between what is right and what is wrong.  Even though we are given a conscience to know the difference, we still have the capability to choose to do something which we know to be wrong, and our conscience can make us feel guilty for doing it.  And when we choose to do something which we know to be right, we can get a feeling of elation.

You are correct in saying neural networks can input information, process it, then produce results.  But no matter how complex the processing capability is, it is still just a collection of atomic particles reacting to the laws of nature.  In physical terms it is not a single entity.  The perception of what is being processed is not done from within.  To perceive the image of a painting, you need an outside observer.  You do not perceive the image from individual pixels.  Perception of the collective activity of many brain cells can't be done by the brain cells themselves.  It is perceived by something outside the brain.  It is perceived by our spiritual soul, which can also intervene to produce conscious acts of free will.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 09:03:45 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #169 on: May 11, 2015, 08:51:44 AM »
As a Jungian I understand that what gives us meaning are our emotional triggers that come from the Unconscious's archetypes and the like
I do not believe that any human being is capable of fully explaining the mystery of their own existence.  If you get ten philosophers to explain their existence, you will get ten different philosophies, because they are all prone to human error.  The true meaning behind our existence can only be discovered in the revelations given to us by our Creator.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2015, 10:56:43 AM »
As a Jungian I understand that what gives us meaning are our emotional triggers that come from the Unconscious's archetypes and the like
I do not believe that any human being is capable of fully explaining the mystery of their own existence.  If you get ten philosophers to explain their existence, you will get ten different philosophies, because they are all prone to human error.  The true meaning behind our existence can only be discovered in the revelations given to us by our Creator.

It's far simpler, and to my mind vastly more likely to be the case, that human existence has no ultimate and over-arching meaning imposed from outside - why would it? There's nothing outside to do any imposing - and therefore it only makes sense to talk of meanings on the individual level which people create for themselves, if they have enough nous.

This seems to bother some people, for some reason. Perhaps because, as Sartre put it, it entails great responsibility and great effort, whereas some people would sooner have their meanings off-the-peg and ready-made, and you can't get an easier, lazier meaning of existence than the ones religions purport to provide. Pretty much all of the work is already done for you; you just have to turn off your critical faculties and bamboozle yourself into believing it's all true.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 11:08:45 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2015, 11:59:24 AM »
As a Jungian I understand that what gives us meaning are our emotional triggers that come from the Unconscious's archetypes and the like
I do not believe that any human being is capable of fully explaining the mystery of their own existence.  If you get ten philosophers to explain their existence, you will get ten different philosophies, because they are all prone to human error.  The true meaning behind our existence can only be discovered in the revelations given to us by our Creator.

Yeh right! ;D ;D ;D

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2015, 01:00:42 PM »
I tend to waffle on whereas you cut to the chase Floo but essentially we mean the same thing :D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2015, 01:19:48 PM »
I tend to waffle on whereas you cut to the chase Floo but essentially we mean the same thing :D

I think we are in agreement over issues of faith, but of course I am kowtowing to you according another poster! ;D

Shaker

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Re: What Is God Made From?
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2015, 01:22:57 PM »
Yeah  ::)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.