What Is God Made From?

[Enki]

Again, no logic involved, Alan. Plenty of people feel that their 'conscience' leads them to distinguish between right and wrong. And many of them, I suggest, might well take a different stand to yourself on matters of morality. I also suggest that many, if not most of these would also feel that their 'consciences' are not being overridden by their own self interest. Some of them may also, like you, believe that their 'consciences' are God given, and that the 'consciences' of certain other people, (perhaps ones like you), have been overridden by the temptation of the Devil.

Notice, Alan, I'm talking about people's feelings and beliefs here, not logic.

But when you say that you support assisted dying, are you not using some form of logic to justify this stance?

If you bother to look back you will find that I said I strongly support the movement for assisted dying.  I come to these conclusions based upon my own feelings of empathy towards those who find themselves in this invidious position plus the fact that I feel I have no right in such cases to impose any outside views on what is their considered judgement.  The rationality of my position is important, of course, and, I suggest, supports my stance, but comes second to these considerations. I also said that I feel no inner guilt in holding my position in this at all, so, in terms of your idea of 'conscience' being some sort of arbiter in such matters, my 'conscience' as you call it, is completely clear.

I fail to see therefore how logic actually plays a part in how I feel.

[torridon]

Did you oppose gay marriage?

It is God who opposes Gay marriage

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

[Shaker]

Did you oppose gay marriage?

It is God who opposes Gay marriage

And yet he lost. Never mind!

[Dicky Underpants]

A question for Alan Burns. You have a voice in your head, which you thought was the deity telling you to kill your child, as apparently happened to Abraham. Would you obey, tell the deity to get lost, or seek psychiatric attention?

God would never allow me to do evil deeds in His name.
You seem to put a lot of emphasis on one story from the old testament to justify your idea of an evil deity.  Jesus performs several miraculous healings on children in the New Testament, and I know He loves my children.

He is recorded as performing at least one of these 'healings' rather grudgingly. As for his love for your children, maybe he would want you to concede that you are a 'dog' first (meaning "not a Jew")? Perhaps this inconvenient scripture might be interpreted metaphorically, encouraging you to accept that you're just a worthless sinner, deserving of hell, but that might be interpreted as even more obnoxious....

I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, since my opinion of Jesus is actually rather high. But I don't like believers brushing inconvenient scriptures under the carpet by trying to play down their obvious implications.

[Alan Burns]

He is recorded as performing at least one of these 'healings' rather grudgingly. As for his love for your children, maybe he would want you to concede that you are a 'dog' first (meaning "not a Jew")? Perhaps this inconvenient scripture might be interpreted metaphorically, encouraging you to accept that you're just a worthless sinner, deserving of hell, but that might be interpreted as even more obnoxious....

I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, since my opinion of Jesus is actually rather high. But I don't like believers brushing inconvenient scriptures under the carpet by trying to play down their obvious implications.

The passage you refer to illustrates the power of faith.  And it also illustrates the obvious authenticity of the bible, because if it had been invented by humans to control our behaviour, there would be no inconvenient scriptures to brush under the carpet.

[Alan Burns]

Did you oppose gay marriage?

It is God who opposes Gay marriage

If you did not 'know' gods opinion, what would yours be?

I have no personal objection, but it is very presumptuous to assume that giving the union the title "marriage" that it will have God's blessing.  The bible clearly states that marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

[Shaker]

The Bible clearly states a great many very very silly things.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Did you oppose gay marriage?

It is God who opposes Gay marriage

And yet he lost. Never mind!

Yes Shaker and that's why people argue he is a tyrant .

[BashfulAnthony]

The Bible clearly states a great many very very silly things.

A disgraceful statement:  have you never heard of commas?   

[Sassy]

Have you ever had a thought you were ashamed of that involuntary popped into your head?

Creativity is a function of the persons psychic make up, their nature. Things do not come out of nothing, not even thoughts; that would be absurd!!!

Are you saying that you have no control of your thoughts?
If you do have control, that is because you have free will.

Noone can choose which thought to think next.  In order to choose which thought to think next, you would have had to have already considered it, ie already thought about it, in order to be able to consciously choose whether to think it or not   That is circular, it doesn't work like that.  At inception, thoughts come to us out of deeper recesses of mind.

I think sleep proves that the brain is a conscious awareness of our inner selves.
Your thoughts are according to the senses we have... The body wants certain things but you decided what it gets.
Pain, present state of mind,surroundings can all impact out thoughts and feelings.
How we react is our choice.

[Sassy]

Anyway, what's your favourite colour ?

purple

Nah, just kiddin'

The point about favourite colour is that in a free will scenario you would be able to choose which colour you prefer. In saying purple you are expressing something about your nature but we do not have the freedom to choose our nature.

In choosing a colour it is merely a preference. Whilst the world around us may reflect in the colour chosen and so affect the choice. How would a blind person choose a colour? I would think their choice would be based on descriptions of that which the world calls lovely.

Whilst choice may affect personality.... I think being a believer affects our choices in life as does being an atheist...

[torridon]

Are you saying that you have no control of your thoughts?
If you do have control, that is because you have free will.

Noone can choose which thought to think next.  In order to choose which thought to think next, you would have had to have already considered it, ie already thought about it, in order to be able to consciously choose whether to think it or not   That is circular, it doesn't work like that.  At inception, thoughts come to us out of deeper recesses of mind.

I think sleep proves that the brain is a conscious awareness of our inner selves..

Eerrrm, it is when the brain is in a waking state that we have conscious experience.

[floo]

The Bible clearly states a great many very very silly things.

It certainly does, but the authors can be forgiven to a certain extent as they didn't have the knowledge we have today!

[Alan Burns]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

[torridon]

Anyway, what's your favourite colour ?

purple

Nah, just kiddin'

The point about favourite colour is that in a free will scenario you would be able to choose which colour you prefer. In saying purple you are expressing something about your nature but we do not have the freedom to choose our nature.

In choosing a colour it is merely a preference. Whilst the world around us may reflect in the colour chosen and so affect the choice. How would a blind person choose a colour? I would think their choice would be based on descriptions of that which the world calls lovely.

Whilst choice may affect personality.... I think being a believer affects our choices in life as does being an atheist...

I think you missed the point.  We cannot choose our preferences any more than we can choose our beliefs.  I cannot just decide to prefer orange if my favourite colour is blue.  I cannot just decide that I like tea more than coffee if I don't.  I cannot just decide to believe that Paris is in Spain if it isn't. But these are examples of things I could do if I had free will.  It's a good job we have a will that is tied to reality,  a free will would render life meaningless and chaotic.

[torridon]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

The passage quoted does show God giving explicit direction to Moses in a criminal justice context and is written in a historical narrative style, not some poetic or allegorical style. If we are to believe Numbers as authentic histori-scriptural narrative revealing the mind of God then you have the conundrum that faced Marcion, but because he lost the argument, modern christianity is still to this day belaboured by its OT legacy.

[Alan Burns]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

The passage quoted does show God giving explicit direction to Moses in a criminal justice context and is written in a historical narrative style, not some poetic or allegorical style. If we are to believe Numbers as authentic histori-scriptural narrative revealing the mind of God then you have the conundrum that faced Marcion, but because he lost the argument, modern christianity is still to this day belaboured by its OT legacy.

Moses and the OT jewish hirachy were not infallible.  They made mistakes, as clearly indicated in the teachings of the New Testament.

[floo]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

You reckon? Actually Christianity has been a force for a lot of nastiness throughout the centuries, if you read your history books!

[BashfulAnthony]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

You reckon? Actually Christianity has been a force for a lot of nastiness throughout the centuries, if you read your history books!

Why must you always be so negative?  Christianity has also been a massive force for good, as you should know.

[Alan Burns]

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

You reckon? Actually Christianity has been a force for a lot of nastiness throughout the centuries, if you read your history books!

So which non-Christian culture would you prefer to have been born into?

[floo]

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

You reckon? Actually Christianity has been a force for a lot of nastiness throughout the centuries, if you read your history books!

So which non-Christian culture would you prefer to have been born into?

I would much prefer it if I had NEVER  heard of Jesus, the guy never did me any favours!

[torridon]

God also clearly opposes the collection of firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)

I presume then you must be in favour of the public stoning to death of such transgressors in your neighbourhood.

Unless of course you are the type who is happy to invoke the alleged authority of God when it coincides with your prejudices, and explain difficult teachings away when they don't.

The passage you refer to is an excellent example of why Jesus had to come to confirm God's ways and set us on the right path.  In the NT there is a clear example of Jesus replacing the barbaric act of stoning with forgiveness coupled with a command to "Go and sin no more".

The passage quoted does show God giving explicit direction to Moses in a criminal justice context and is written in a historical narrative style, not some poetic or allegorical style. If we are to believe Numbers as authentic histori-scriptural narrative revealing the mind of God then you have the conundrum that faced Marcion, but because he lost the argument, modern christianity is still to this day belaboured by its OT legacy.

Moses and the OT jewish hirachy were not infallible.  They made mistakes, as clearly indicated in the teachings of the New Testament.

Yes, all humans are fallible, including Moses and the other authors of the Jewish bible, including the writers of the New Testament gospels, including Paul, including Jesus, including Mohammed, including me, including you, including the Pope, even including Shaker. Oh, hang on a minute.  Here's my rule of thumb : the greater an idea's dependence on a single authority for its veracity, the likelier it is to be wrong. I think it a healthy mindset to acknowledge one's limits.

[Alien]

...  Here's my rule of thumb : the greater an idea's dependence on a single authority for its veracity, the likelier it is to be wrong.

All other things being equal.

Which they aren't.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, all humans are fallible, including Moses and the other authors of the Jewish bible, including the writers of the New Testament gospels, including Paul, including Jesus, including Mohammed, including me, including you, including the Pope, even including Shaker. Oh, hang on a minute.  Here's my rule of thumb : the greater an idea's dependence on a single authority for its veracity, the likelier it is to be wrong. I think it a healthy mindset to acknowledge one's limits.

But Jesus was not just human - He was God made man.
"... and the Word became flesh and lived among us"
This is the whole basis of Christianity.
If I did not believe this, I would not be a Christian.

[Alan Burns]

Just imagine what our lives would be like if Jesus had not come to save us.  Western civilisation was founded on the teachings of the new testament.  Without Him we would most likely have drifted into a dreadful self centred culture dominated by fear.

You reckon? Actually Christianity has been a force for a lot of nastiness throughout the centuries, if you read your history books!

So which non-Christian culture would you prefer to have been born into?

I would much prefer it if I had NEVER  heard of Jesus, the guy never did me any favours!

He played a major part in the culture you were brought up in, so if you reject this as a 'non desirable favour', which non-Christian culture would you prefer?