What Is God Made From?

[Dicky Underpants]

"Can you point out the good, please?"

Allow me to butt in:  since you never read my posts, your answer is, simply:  love, forgive, do unto others, turn the other cheek,  etc.

And that of course is absolutely the case.

[BashfulAnthony]

DU,

Further:  I am reminded of Jesus walking on water, and Peter attempting to, but failing.  Whether or not the story is true matters not.  What was being said is that if you doubt what Jesus says, even though you may think you don't, unless it is 100% belief, then you effectively doubt Him.  Peter clearly did have some doubt; but as we see later, he came to believe totally in the final analysis.  So if he did, so can others overcome that doubt.

[Dicky Underpants]

s that if you doubt what Jesus says, as Peter clearly did, then you doubt Him
Du,

Further:  I am reminded of Jesus walking on water, and Peter attempting to, but failing.  Whether or not the story is true matters not.  What was being said is that if you doubt what Jesus says, even though you may think you don't, unless it is 100% belief, then you effectively doubt Him.  Peter clearly did have some doubt; but as we see later, he came to believe totally in the final analysis.  So if he did, so can others overcome that doubt.

Strange - the proportion of doubt and belief in me during those terrible times were not uppermost in my mind. Now I certainly doubt, and am quite happy with that. When one has analysed these matters in the light of reason and experience, the time comes when one accepts life just as it is. I have no hopes of eternity, but I don't find this at all daunting.
As far as your own belief is concerned, it comes down to placing your belief in certain key texts, selected from the accepted canon. You have your own criteria for choosing which texts you believe in, but would you accept the Gospel of Thomas or Philip as authoritative, and if not, why not?
Why not the Baghavad Gita?

[BashfulAnthony]

s that if you doubt what Jesus says, as Peter clearly did, then you doubt Him
Du,

Further:  I am reminded of Jesus walking on water, and Peter attempting to, but failing.  Whether or not the story is true matters not.  What was being said is that if you doubt what Jesus says, even though you may think you don't, unless it is 100% belief, then you effectively doubt Him.  Peter clearly did have some doubt; but as we see later, he came to believe totally in the final analysis.  So if he did, so can others overcome that doubt.

Strange - the proportion of doubt and belief in me during those terrible times were not uppermost in my mind. Now I certainly doubt, and am quite happy with that. When one has analysed these matters in the light of reason and experience, the time comes when one accepts life just as it is. I have no hopes of eternity, but I don't find this at all daunting.
As far as your own belief is concerned, it comes down to placing your belief in certain key texts, selected from the accepted canon. You have your own criteria for choosing which texts you believe in, but would you accept the Gospel of Thomas or Philip as authoritative, and if not, why not?
Why not the Baghavad Gita?

I simply accept the canon as it now is.  Thomas lacks the necessary assertion of Jesus' divinity.  I am happy with the canon as it is.
As to the Baghavad Gita.  All well and good; but it is Jesus that is missing from it.

[floo]

Can you point out the good, please?

Don't be silly. Jesus is reported as having healed people, having preached love and forgiveness etc. Not to mention having gone courageously to a  hideous death. You know this.
I don't know if these things actually happened, i don't know for absolute certain whether he actually existed - or at least I can't prove it. But I can't see that everything recorded in the NT comes under the category of 'evil', even though a lot obviously does.

I am talking about the flipping deity, not the very human Jesus. That guy had some good points, although of course I don't believe the less than credible stuff attributed to him was true.

[Alan Burns]

You say you believe God will respond, and many others will testify that God does not respond. What I do believe that if you are truly disposed to be convinced of the existence of 'spiritual' things, then the mind itself can often come up with some extraordinary experiences.

The NT confirms that faith is the key you need to use to unlock God's power.  I know from my own experience and that of many other Christians that in order for a prayer to be answered, first you need to believe that God has the power to answer it.

[torridon]

Du,

Further:  I am reminded of Jesus walking on water, and Peter attempting to, but failing.  Whether or not the story is true matters not.  What was being said is that if you doubt what Jesus says, even though you may think you don't, unless it is 100% belief, then you effectively doubt Him.  Peter clearly did have some doubt; but as we see later, he came to believe totally in the final analysis.  So if he did, so can others overcome that doubt.

Let's hear it for doubt.  Doubt is a good thing.  Through doubting, we remain humble enough to be open to new insights. With certainty, we close our minds and narrow our horizons. Certainty might be more comfortable, but it is an illusion; nothing is ever completely certain.

[torridon]

You say you believe God will respond, and many others will testify that God does not respond. What I do believe that if you are truly disposed to be convinced of the existence of 'spiritual' things, then the mind itself can often come up with some extraordinary experiences.

The NT confirms that faith is the key you need to use to unlock God's power.  I know from my own experience and that of many other Christians that in order for a prayer to be answered, first you need to believe that God has the power to answer it.

Sounds suspiciously like a placebo effect to me I'm afraid

[Shaker]

Let's hear it for doubt.  Doubt is a good thing.  Through doubting, we remain humble enough to be open to new insights. With certainty, we close our minds and narrow our horizons. Certainty might be more comfortable, but it is an illusion; nothing is ever completely certain.

"Doubt may be uncomfortable but certainty is ridiculous." - Voltaire

[Jack Knave]

Then that isn't freewill, if it was your will and choice to do evil in Gods name and It stopped you! You can't have 80% freewill, it is either all or nothing.

If you read what I said, once I have full knowledge of God I would be unable to consciously do something bad in His name unless I changed sides to to it deliberately against His will.

And by definition you do not have freewill because you are being conditioned and influenced which is contrary to the actions of freewill. Anything that impinges a bias into something has tarnished its capacity to act in a freewill manner, and by adhering to a set of laws and rules set out by your God you have chained yourself to a conditional format.

[Jack Knave]

You can't have 80% freewill, it is either all or nothing. This is something your argument has failed to appreciate that freewill means total freeness to choose without restriction and to be unhindered by any biases and conditions.

Your logic is wrong.  Many things can influence our decisions, but our conscious awareness can override these if we wish to do so.  It only takes one act of conscious free will to show evidence for the human soul.

But your if we wish to do so consciousness has to have a nature to do this else how can it motivate itself to take such actions? How does it decide? And a nature implies biases and likes.

[Alan Burns]

But your if we wish to do so consciousness has to have a nature to do this else how can it motivate itself to take such actions? How does it decide? And a nature implies biases and likes.

You will not find the origin of free will in any nature.  It has to come from outside the deterministic nature of thing in our universe, otherwise it is not free will.  The origin of human free will is in the self awareness of the human soul.  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

[BashfulAnthony]

Let's hear it for doubt.  Doubt is a good thing.  Through doubting, we remain humble enough to be open to new insights. With certainty, we close our minds and narrow our horizons. Certainty might be more comfortable, but it is an illusion; nothing is ever completely certain.

"Doubt may be uncomfortable but certainty is ridiculous." - Voltaire

I have so often said, I have had many doubts over the years.. It's good to know that the atheists on here, who are so certain in their disbelief, can be considered to be ridiculous. I have always felt that anyway.

[Sebastian Toe]

  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

If you wish that you could hold your breath for 20 minutes, could you do it?

Go in give it a go.

[Shaker]

Please.

[Alan Burns]

  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

If you wish that you could hold your breath for 20 minutes, could you do it?

Go in give it a go.

I could give it a go using my free will, but my natural instincts would override, as they are designed to do if we try to deliberately put ourselves in danger.  However there are still some things which even our natural instincts might not be able to override, depending on how strong willed we are - such as jumping off a cliff.

[Shaker]

I could give it a go using my free will, but my natural instincts would override, as they are designed to do if we try to deliberately put ourselves in danger.  However there are still some things which even our natural instincts might not be able to override, depending on how strong willed we are - such as jumping off a cliff.

N.B. Alan - People jump off cliffs.

[Maeght]

But your if we wish to do so consciousness has to have a nature to do this else how can it motivate itself to take such actions? How does it decide? And a nature implies biases and likes.

You will not find the origin of free will in any nature.  It has to come from outside the deterministic nature of thing in our universe, otherwise it is not free will.  The origin of human free will is in the self awareness of the human soul.  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

Where does the wish come from?

[Sebastian Toe]

  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

If you wish that you could hold your breath for 20 minutes, could you do it?

Go in give it a go.

I could give it a go using my free will, but my natural instincts would override, as they are designed to do if we try to deliberately put ourselves in danger.  However there are still some things which even our natural instincts might not be able to override, depending on how strong willed we are - such as jumping off a cliff.

So, not such an amazing ability after all then......

[torridon]

We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

That doesn't really amount to free will in the full sense.  A dog chases a thrown stick because it enjoys the game and wants to play. A depressed man might jump off a bridge because he wants to end his life. Every choice we make is an expression of our nature at that moment in time.  Free will supposes that we are free to ignore our nature, ie we would be able to freely choose what to want and that we cannot do. It would mean for instance, that given that your favourite colour is purple, you would be able to choose to prefer orange instead. That you cannot do, and even if you could change your preferences, on what basis could you possibly make a choice of new preference apart from considering your preferences ? Nobody can want something that they don't want.

[Leonard James]

Nobody can want something that they don't want.

True, Torri, but we can't control what we want, but we CAN control whether we act on that want. That is when we exercise our free will.

[Sebastian Toe]

  We have the amazing ability to do something just because we wish to do it.

If you wish that you could hold your breath for 20 minutes, could you do it?

Go in give it a go.

I could give it a go using my free will, but my natural instincts would override, as they are designed to do if we try to deliberately put ourselves in danger.  However there are still some things which even our natural instincts might not be able to override, depending on how strong willed we are - such as jumping off a cliff.

Your natural instincts will tell you to not try to breathe whilst underwater as that would put you in danger.
So why not try to wish to not breath for 20 mins whilst underwater?
That would be a good test of your 'amazing ability' would it not?

[floo]

You say you believe God will respond, and many others will testify that God does not respond. What I do believe that if you are truly disposed to be convinced of the existence of 'spiritual' things, then the mind itself can often come up with some extraordinary experiences.

The NT confirms that faith is the key you need to use to unlock God's power.  I know from my own experience and that of many other Christians that in order for a prayer to be answered, first you need to believe that God has the power to answer it.

When I was a kid I did believe the deity had the power to answer my fervent prayers, but it didn't bother, so naturally I drew the conclusion it didn't give a damn, or it didn't exist!

[Alan Burns]

Nobody can want something that they don't want.

True, Torri, but we can't control what we want, but we CAN control whether we act on that want. That is when we exercise our free will.

Well said, Len.

[Sassy]

A question for Alan Burns. You have a voice in your head, which you thought was the deity telling you to kill your child, as apparently happened to Abraham. Would you obey, tell the deity to get lost, or seek psychiatric attention?

God would never allow me to do evil deeds in His name.

And bang goes your freewill, Alan!!! Which just shows what a load of crap you've been talking. You haven't a clue have you, but you're too stupid to realise it.

Behave Knave,

Knave by name and it appears by nature if you really believe that God not asking him to sin goes against his free will.
You need to reason through and see why freewill is in no wise an issue with the above scenario.

which you thought was the deity telling you to kill your child,

The answer given:

God would never allow me to do evil deeds in His name.

Rather badly written but the answer is clear that GOD WOULD NOT ASK HIM TO DO SOMETHING WHICH WOULD BE A SIN.

As for Abraham, no laws existed when this happened with him.
As the outcome shows Alan to be right... God even then did not allow Abraham to sin. But as God is the giver of life he can give and take it, give and take it... All life proceeds from the Father.

So why would either worry when he can make ancestors of Abraham out of stones?

Your lack Knave, is that you have never really considered the person who is God in the bible. You simply choose what you want to believe and paint God to be as black as it suits you to hold on to disbelief.