What Is God Made From?

[Jack Knave]

Which trick was involved in Jesus getting flogged, nailed to a cross for 6 hours or so, found to be dead by the professional executioners and stabbed with a spear for good measure, put in a known tomb which was found to be empty two days later and then convinced people on about a dozen occasions that he had been raised from the dead, people in groups and as individuals in different situations and sometimes eating with them?

I'd have to say that I don't go down the trick route either, Alan, which seems to me to be no less demonstrable as being a reasonably certain historical fact than are the various aspects of the existing NT narrative that mention what you note above (empty tomb and all that).

My concern here is that you seem to accept these aspects as being historical facts, presumably because they are in the NT, but it seems to me that there is a clear risk that these aspects are propaganda by the supporters of Jesus: after all propaganda by supporters and/or detractors of a cause or person is known human behaviour.

These aspects do seem like the kinds of things that those wishing to promote the Jesus myth might say after he was killed and stayed inconveniently dead, as humans tend to do once killed in a traumatic manner, in order to maintain the divinity myth: they could have said these things even if Jesus wasn't actually killed at all, since faked disappearances are another known feature of human behaviour. 

It seems reasonable to suggest that deliberate propaganda is at the very least a known risk in any anecdotal reports so to what extent have Christians considered and excluded deliberate propaganda in relation to NT narrative?   

That's an interesting consideration. We see this in politics and in other highly invested activities. People who have given their all to a project (especially one of life and death) find it hard to let go and will keep on fighting for its veracity by any means. As I said we see this in politics - and in blind love - when it is obvious to others it has failed the believer will keep on flogging that died horse. Even lying and making up shit to keep the dream alive!!!

Also, the fanatical under dog tends to shout more, in some form or other, to get their voice heard and their point made, usually because they perceive that their beliefs are disappearing into history. This they can do by coming out with eye catching claims and statements. Whereas those in position of power are usually more calm and 'civilised' about their conduct because they feel safe and their position is one of security and assuredness, and one which is often supported by the majority. 

[Jack Knave]

Which trick was involved in Jesus getting flogged, nailed to a cross for 6 hours or so, found to be dead by the professional executioners and stabbed with a spear for good measure, put in a known tomb which was found to be empty two days later and then convinced people on about a dozen occasions that he had been raised from the dead, people in groups and as individuals in different situations and sometimes eating with them?

I'd have to say that I don't go down the trick route either, Alan, which seems to me to be no less demonstrable as being a reasonably certain historical fact than are the various aspects of the existing NT narrative that mention what you note above (empty tomb and all that).

My concern here is that you seem to accept these aspects as being historical facts, presumably because they are in the NT,

No, that is not the case. I have written in the past about how I became a Christian and it did not, back then, include me treating the NT as inerrant or inspired.

but it seems to me that there is a clear risk that these aspects are propaganda by the supporters of Jesus: after all propaganda by supporters and/or detractors of a cause or person is known human behaviour.

Yes, there is a risk. I may have got this all wrong. However, it being propaganda does not seem to fit with the scenario we have, i.e. at least some of the people supplying this information dying for what they said and wrote.

These aspects do seem like the kinds of things that those wishing to promote the Jesus myth might say after he was killed and stayed inconveniently dead, as humans tend to do once killed in a traumatic manner, in order to maintain the divinity myth: they could have said these things even if Jesus wasn't actually killed at all, since faked disappearances are another known feature of human behaviour.

 

It seems reasonable to suggest that deliberate propaganda is at the very least a known risk in any anecdotal reports so to what extent have Christians considered and excluded deliberate propaganda in relation to NT narrative?   

So what would their motivation have been for these alleged lies?

You forgot this short passage to redden, Alan, fixed it for you.

I thought the same. After all Alan's shouting about that he does not take it that if someone dies for their belief that that is proof of the veracity of their belief, he then types that above, totally contradicting himself. If the issue of dying for what you believe in is of no consequence to the truth of that belief why mention it......Alan?

[Jack Knave]

Which trick was involved in Jesus getting flogged, nailed to a cross for 6 hours or so, found to be dead by the professional executioners and stabbed with a spear for good measure, put in a known tomb which was found to be empty two days later and then convinced people on about a dozen occasions that he had been raised from the dead, people in groups and as individuals in different situations and sometimes eating with them?

I'd have to say that I don't go down the trick route either, Alan, which seems to me to be no less demonstrable as being a reasonably certain historical fact than are the various aspects of the existing NT narrative that mention what you note above (empty tomb and all that).

My concern here is that you seem to accept these aspects as being historical facts, presumably because they are in the NT,

No, that is not the case. I have written in the past about how I became a Christian and it did not, back then, include me treating the NT as inerrant or inspired.

but it seems to me that there is a clear risk that these aspects are propaganda by the supporters of Jesus: after all propaganda by supporters and/or detractors of a cause or person is known human behaviour.

Yes, there is a risk. I may have got this all wrong. However, it being propaganda does not seem to fit with the scenario we have, i.e. at least some of the people supplying this information dying for what they said and wrote.

These aspects do seem like the kinds of things that those wishing to promote the Jesus myth might say after he was killed and stayed inconveniently dead, as humans tend to do once killed in a traumatic manner, in order to maintain the divinity myth: they could have said these things even if Jesus wasn't actually killed at all, since faked disappearances are another known feature of human behaviour.

 

It seems reasonable to suggest that deliberate propaganda is at the very least a known risk in any anecdotal reports so to what extent have Christians considered and excluded deliberate propaganda in relation to NT narrative?   

So what would their motivation have been for these alleged lies?

You forgot this short passage to redden, Alan, fixed it for you.

Thank you. Indeed, propaganda does not seem to fit with the scenario we have.

I wonder why you wanted to highlight that though. Are you convinced by what I wrote?

I think you should read what you've written, Alan, you're dismissing propaganda as a reason, because some of these people were prepared to die for what they said and wrote.  Why dismiss it for that reason if you think dying for your beliefs is ... in your words ...  so what?

Eh? People rarely die willingly for what they know to be a lie. That is my point.

This is besides the point to the issue, Alan. What was going through their heads makes no difference to the veracity of the claims we are considering here. People have died for politics and that makes no offer of life everlasting. What motivates people to even die for a cause has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. Perhaps the early Christians were just stupid...?

[floo]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

[jjohnjil]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

[BashfulAnthony]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

There are some  thing you've missed out in your clumsy comparison between the two religions:  love, forgiveness, mercy, and do to others as you would have them do to you, redemption    Did you not know those things about Christianity?

[jjohnjil]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

There are some  thing you've missed out in your clumsy comparison between the two religions:  love, forgiveness, mercy, and do to others as you would have them do to you, redemption    Did you not know those things about Christianity?

If that is how you live your life, BA, then that's just great.  Is it necessary though to believe a completely ridiculous set of stories to do any of that?  Do you really need the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell to live a decent life?

[Leonard James]

If that is how you live your life, BA, then that's just great.  Is it necessary though to believe a completely ridiculous set of stories to do any of that?  Do you really need the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell to live a decent life?

Ouch! 

[floo]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

There are some  thing you've missed out in your clumsy comparison between the two religions:  love, forgiveness, mercy, and do to others as you would have them do to you, redemption    Did you not know those things about Christianity?

If that is how you live your life, BA, then that's just great.  Is it necessary though to believe a completely ridiculous set of stories to do any of that?  Do you really need the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell to live a decent life?

Christianity is just another religion, there is nothing which proves it to have any more basis in fact than any other. Yes it has some good points, as no doubt other religions do. Unfortunately some Christians, like one or two of the more vociferous ones on this forum, certainly don't put into practise what they preach, if their posts are anything to go by!

[2Corrie]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

There are some  thing you've missed out in your clumsy comparison between the two religions:  love, forgiveness, mercy, and do to others as you would have them do to you, redemption    Did you not know those things about Christianity?

If that is how you live your life, BA, then that's just great.  Is it necessary though to believe a completely ridiculous set of stories to do any of that?  Do you really need the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell to live a decent life?

Hey everyone, come and follow the Lord Jesus Christ so that we can all live jolly decent lives!


STRAW MAN

[~TW~]

Just something that came from the thoughts from another thread, what do Christians think God is made from; what constitutes the form of God?

If you respond with spirit then how did God manipulate the matter that forms the universe and our world? - as it clearly says in Genesis that he moulded the clay to create Adam.

Jack starting threads like this    you lot must be desperate,now come on you can do better then this 

 ~TW~

[jjohnjil]

Members of ISIS are willing to die for their cause, does it mean it is true?

Yes, because they're Christians, Floo!

Oh no, wait a minute ....... No, it's because Islam's beliefs are obviously illogical and silly, not like Christianity's beliefs! 

I mean who ever heard of someone being crucified and finally killed by being stabbed with a spear and then coming back to life.  Silly Muslims!   Oh no, wait a minute ... you're getting me all confused, Floo

There are some  thing you've missed out in your clumsy comparison between the two religions:  love, forgiveness, mercy, and do to others as you would have them do to you, redemption    Did you not know those things about Christianity?

If that is how you live your life, BA, then that's just great.  Is it necessary though to believe a completely ridiculous set of stories to do any of that?  Do you really need the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell to live a decent life?

Hey everyone, come and follow the Lord Jesus Christ so that we can all live jolly decent lives!


STRAW MAN

Hey everyone, come and follow the Lord Jesus Christ so that we can all play our harps on a heavenly cloud and watch all those nasty atheists burn in our loving God's Hell Hole!

STRAW MAN

[Leonard James]

Jack starting threads like this    you lot must be desperate,now
 ~TW~

Difficult for you to answer, isn't it, TW?   



We can always do better than you, mate, because your posts are based on imagination, ours on facts.

[Jack Knave]

Jack starting threads like this    you lot must be desperate,now
 ~TW~

Difficult for you to answer, isn't it, TW?   



We can always do better than you, mate, because your posts are based on imagination, ours on facts.

If our posts are so easy to deal with I do wonder where TW has been for the last 500 odd posts. And after all that time that was the best he could do!

With TW's great perspicacity and irrefragable arguments I think I'd better go and hide in a hole. 

[Shaker]

That's an interesting consideration. We see this in politics and in other highly invested activities. People who have given their all to a project (especially one of life and death) find it hard to let go and will keep on fighting for its veracity by any means. As I said we see this in politics - and in blind love - when it is obvious to others it has failed the believer will keep on flogging that died horse. Even lying and making up shit to keep the dream alive!!!

It's called the sunk costs fallacy:

http://skepdic.com/sunkcost.html

Add it to the list of other fallacies that you'll get called on by this or that theist merely for pointing it out.

[jeremyp]

Alien

Do you also accept that the best explanation is that the miracles they wrote about actually happened?

No, at least some of them have been demonstrated to be tricks. Searching on Google or referring to the last time you asked me that question will show you.

If not, why do you think people writing about a dead man coming back to life are writing about actual events?

Reasons would include:
* Jesus seems to have been a very honest man;

According to Christians

Sai Baba has been demonstrated to be a trickster.

Do you think that an account written by Sai Baba's followers would portray him as a trickster?

* (As far as I know), none of those claiming Sai Baba performed miracles are so sure of that belief that they have died for it; some early Christians did though.

According to Christians.

* What Jesus did fitted in with the whole context of the lead up to his life in the OT and John the Baptists preaching

You mean what Jesus is alleged to have done by Christians.

There may be others, but that should get you started.

Everything we know about Jesus was written by his followers after his death.  If Jesus was a trickster or had other major character flaws, they are hardly expected to be honest about it.

[Jack Knave]

Alien

Do you also accept that the best explanation is that the miracles they wrote about actually happened?

No, at least some of them have been demonstrated to be tricks. Searching on Google or referring to the last time you asked me that question will show you.

If not, why do you think people writing about a dead man coming back to life are writing about actual events?

Reasons would include:
* Jesus seems to have been a very honest man;

According to Christians

Sai Baba has been demonstrated to be a trickster.

Do you think that an account written by Sai Baba's followers would portray him as a trickster?

* (As far as I know), none of those claiming Sai Baba performed miracles are so sure of that belief that they have died for it; some early Christians did though.

According to Christians.

* What Jesus did fitted in with the whole context of the lead up to his life in the OT and John the Baptists preaching

You mean what Jesus is alleged to have done by Christians.

There may be others, but that should get you started.

Everything we know about Jesus was written by his followers after his death.  If Jesus was a trickster or had other major character flaws, they are hardly expected to be honest about it.

If he had been a trickster how would they know?

We know how gullible people are, remember Jim Jones' cult?

 https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jim_Jones

[jeremyp]

If he had been a trickster how would they know?

If you are a devoted follower of a person, the evidence is that even being given incontrovertible proof that they are a charlatan is not necessarily  enough.  People will believe in the face of almost anything if they want to.

We know how gullible people are, remember Jim Jones' cult?

Strangely I was thinking of bringing that up. 

Jim Jones, of course, must have been telling the truth because all his followers committed suicide at his command.  I expect he preached peace and love too, just like Jesus.

[Shaker]

People will believe in the face of almost anything if they want to.

Squirrelled away for a future signature, if you don't mind ever so muchly.

[Jack Knave]

If he had been a trickster how would they know?

If you are a devoted follower of a person, the evidence is that even being given incontrovertible proof that they are a charlatan is not necessarily  enough.  People will believe in the face of almost anything if they want to.

We know how gullible people are, remember Jim Jones' cult?

Strangely I was thinking of bringing that up. 

Jim Jones, of course, must have been telling the truth because all his followers committed suicide at his command.  I expect he preached peace and love too, just like Jesus.

I saw a programme on Jones some while back and iirc many of his followers didn't want to kill themselves but because they were trapped in South America in some 'jungle' they were essentially murdered or at least tricked into drinking the poison. 

[BashfulAnthony]

If you are a devoted follower of a person, the evidence is that even being given incontrovertible proof that they are a charlatan is not necessarily  enough.  People will believe in the face of almost anything if they want to.

Some will, and some won't.  You can't generalise.

Jim Jones, of course, must have been telling the truth because all his followers committed suicide at his command.  I expect he preached peace and love too, just like Jesus.

You obviously haven't read my previous post on Jones. Read up about him, and find out the real story of the man.

[2Corrie]

People will believe in the face of almost anything if they want to.

Squirrelled away for a future signature, if you don't mind ever so muchly.

I might squirrel this away to for the next time 'you can't choose what to believe' is banded about.

[jeremyp]

I saw a programme on Jones some while back and iirc many of his followers didn't want to kill themselves but because they were trapped in South America in some 'jungle' they were essentially murdered or at least tricked into drinking the poison.

They knew they were committing suicide, except the children.  Clearly they believed something to make them do it and according to Alan, that means what they believed was true. 

[Jack Knave]

I saw a programme on Jones some while back and iirc many of his followers didn't want to kill themselves but because they were trapped in South America in some 'jungle' they were essentially murdered or at least tricked into drinking the poison.

They knew they were committing suicide, except the children.  Clearly they believed something to make them do it and according to Alan, that means what they believed was true.

Some at least weren't willing partners and wanted to escape and live. What Jones did whilst they were in the US, and was offering them a 'new life' and the 'promise land', was to get them to pool their collective wealth which was then under his control. When he planned to go to South America none of them had any personal finance, no homes, and were basically shipped out their under duress - they were trapped, they had no choice.

Many knew what the potion was and had no wish to die but Jones' henchmen forced many to do it. Many knew because Jones had a dummy run on the act to see who was 'loyal' to him.

[jeremyp]

I saw a programme on Jones some while back and iirc many of his followers didn't want to kill themselves but because they were trapped in South America in some 'jungle' they were essentially murdered or at least tricked into drinking the poison.

They knew they were committing suicide, except the children.  Clearly they believed something to make them do it and according to Alan, that means what they believed was true.

Some at least weren't willing partners and wanted to escape and live. What Jones did whilst they were in the US, and was offering them a 'new life' and the 'promise land', was to get them to pool their collective wealth which was then under his control. When he planned to go to South America none of them had any personal finance, no homes, and were basically shipped out their under duress - they were trapped, they had no choice.

Many knew what the potion was and had no wish to die but Jones' henchmen forced many to do it. Many knew because Jones had a dummy run on the act to see who was 'loyal' to him.

You miss the point totally.  Some people didn't want to do it but some did.  The fact that some people willingly went to their deaths believing in Jones tells us (according to Alan) that their beliefs were true.