What Is God Made From?

[jjohnjil]

...
Because what I say is true as I have explained logically and philosophically in the past. These people were like you in that they believed in something and from that emotional standpoint they moved forwards towards the conclusion of their faith based on the premise of that belief, which sets up assumptions which they would not, and could not, have questioned. You seem to think that their judgement on the matter was infallible and clear headed and that assumption has set you on the wrong course as this is as far from the truth as can be. They were far from infallible. The fact is we can't know what actually happened 2000 years ago and it is ludicrous to base one's whole life on what is mere guesswork and speculation. The fact that there were many of them is neither here nor there as some/most people, because of emotional needs, will follow and accept what the crowd says (the social norm for that group) or what some charismatic figure expresses. We see this kind of thing with ISIS and with the Japanese civilians in WWII, because of their social beliefs and culture, who committed suicide rather than be take by the Americans as prisoners.

What a load of old tosh. Seriously, it is. Come on, what would have been their motives for making it all up? How would they have managed to handle it with so many people? How come some of them went to their deaths for standing for something they knew was a lie? It just doesn't add up.

Was the tomb empty or not? Did people claim to have seen Jesus on about a dozen occasions or not? Those are the questions which need answering and if you answer them honestly, as I hope you will, it will turn your life upside down.

Your whole premise is based on speculation

So you claim, but have not demonstrated.

and your ability to correctly guess how all this came about.

We just can't figure out with our limited minds all the possibilities involved here for why this came about.

The same goes for lots of things, e.g. in physics, yet we come to conclusions.

And these accounts were written 30 years after the claimed events. By that time all manner of myths could have been generated about the tomb and this and that...

How?

Your questions are superfluous because they can't be answered with 100% confirmation, as all historical accounts can't be, else all historians past, present and future would all agree on the way historical events have proceeded. But they don't and there is a reason for this.

100%? I agree. However, I take it you accept that things like the Armada and the Battle of Hastings and the Roman invasion of Britain happened. Why so unsure on this one (apart from, perhaps, it making great claims on you personally if it is true)?
[/quote]

North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il is the best golfer in the world, hands down. On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out.

Not quite as old as your examples, Alan.  Do you not have even a niggling doubt about this report,

[Nearly Sane]

In representing claims as facts, as has been pointed out to you that this is what you are doing, (multiple times)

You have alleged multiple times that what I have claimed to be true is untrue. So what? You alleging stuff doesn't thereby make you correct and turn me into a liar. Do you really not understand that?

and he lies again. I have told you multiple times that arguing claims as true is a lie, if you continue to do it, and you continue to do it and then you lie about that.

Look up the definition of "lie" in a dictionary.

You know these are claims and you are presenting them as facts which is a deliberate untruth.

I believe the claims about Christianity are correct, that they are true, that the core things of Jesus' life, death and resurrection actually happened. I might be wrong, but that is what I believe. Therefore, I may be wrong, but I am not lying.

You are presenting them as facts, not claims that you believe. That is a deliberate untruth

I believe them to be true; you do not. That does not make me a liar.

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

[Alien]

...

North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il is the best golfer in the world, hands down. On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out.

Not quite as old as your examples, Alan.  Do you not have even a niggling doubt about this report,

Yes, thanks. So how many independent witnesses do we have and do we have any good reason to believe them?

[Alien]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

[Nearly Sane]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

If you know these are merely claims then presenting them as facts which you do continually is a deliberate untruth.

[Andy]

There are plenty of religious con men out there today who convince people that they are seeing what they aren't, Benny Hinn is a case in point!

OK, you show me how to get crucified, get buried in a tomb and then two days later appear to people right as rain and have an empty tomb.

Why will no atheists show me how this was done?

Because it can't be done genuinely. Once you're dead you are dead.

So why did people think they saw and sometimes ate with Jesus on a dozen or so occasions in the 40 days after his death?

Where is his body now?

[~TW~]

There are plenty of religious con men out there today who convince people that they are seeing what they aren't, Benny Hinn is a case in point!

OK, you show me how to get crucified, get buried in a tomb and then two days later appear to people right as rain and have an empty tomb.

Why will no atheists show me how this was done?

Because it can't be done genuinely. Once you're dead you are dead.

So why did people think they saw and sometimes ate with Jesus on a dozen or so occasions in the 40 days after his death?

Where is his body now?

 Where is he now.Heaven.
~TW~

[jjohnjil]

...

North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il is the best golfer in the world, hands down. On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out.

Not quite as old as your examples, Alan.  Do you not have even a niggling doubt about this report,

Yes, thanks. So how many independent witnesses do we have and do we have any good reason to believe them?

Exactly, Alan, have you any for the Resurrection?  I'm sure if you go over to N Korea, they'll provide you with as many as you'll find in the Bible to back up that story.

[Gordon]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

It would if NS was clearly portraying claims as being  facts, which as I recall he wasn't.

That Jesus was resurrected is a claim: it is clearly not a fact since there is nothing other than claims involved in the NT narrative about it. Claims are easily fabricated, and especially post-hoc, compared to facts that (being factual) can subjected to investigation, which creates a problem for you guys since 'supernatural fact' is an oxymoron without a suitable investigatory method.

You are over-estimating the value of the NT claims, again, and that you choose to believe these claims (empty tombs etc)  doesn't convert them into facts, and to portray claims as being facts is a misrepresentation..

[~TW~]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

 

It would if NS was clearly portraying claims as being  facts, which as I recall he wasn't.

That Jesus was resurrected is a claim: it is clearly not a fact since there is nothing other than claims involved in the NT narrative about it. Claims are easily fabricated, and especially post-hoc, compared to facts that (being factual) can subjected to investigation, which creates a problem for you guys since 'supernatural fact' is an oxymoron without a suitable investigatory method.

You are over-estimating the value of the NT claims, again, and that you choose to believe these claims (empty tombs etc)  doesn't convert them into facts, and to portray claims as being facts is a misrepresentation..

  So Gordon you give me the impression you are afraid that this Jesus was resurrected and the story is true.But you and your friends are clutching at straws and every excuse to downgrade the story and say it was a hoax.What evidence do you have to prove it was a hoax and why would this be.

   ~TW~

[cyberman]

It didn't happen as described in the Bible.

Is that a claim or a fact? NS will call you a liar if you keep on getting them mixed up, floo!

[Gordon]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

 

It would if NS was clearly portraying claims as being  facts, which as I recall he wasn't.

That Jesus was resurrected is a claim: it is clearly not a fact since there is nothing other than claims involved in the NT narrative about it. Claims are easily fabricated, and especially post-hoc, compared to facts that (being factual) can subjected to investigation, which creates a problem for you guys since 'supernatural fact' is an oxymoron without a suitable investigatory method.

You are over-estimating the value of the NT claims, again, and that you choose to believe these claims (empty tombs etc)  doesn't convert them into facts, and to portray claims as being facts is a misrepresentation..

  So Gordon you give me the impression you are afraid that this Jesus was resurrected and the story is true.But you and your friends are clutching at straws and every excuse to downgrade the story and say it was a hoax.What evidence do you have to prove it was a hoax and why would this be.

   ~TW~

It is a myth, TW, and without substantive evidence (as opposed to claim) it is indistinguishable from fiction and, as such,
really isn't a serious proposition, so it remains a myth.

Your impression is wrong, TW, since I'm no more 'afraid' of taking the resurrection of Jesus aspect of the NT seriously than I am about taking seriously the possibility that the plot-line of 'Topsy and Tim go shopping with Mummy' is actually true in reality, and in every respect of elements of the story!

Both appear to be fiction, albeit that the latter is at least grounded in reality.   

[jeremyp]

So how would Peter lying to everyone produce the other records of people meeting Jesus, e.g. the women at the tomb, the disciples on the road to Emmaus, Jesus appearing to James and so on?

What records?  Do you mean the stories in the Bible?  You do understand they are not historically  credible, don't you?

Why do you think they are not historically credible?

They are written by anonymous people for the most part, years after the events and they are pushing an agenda.  There's no corroboration for most of them from other sources and where two or more purportedly describe the same events, they often disagree.

Oh yes, and they talk about a dead man coming alive again, which is totally laughable.

That's correct. I don't think he was lying though. Lying is making an intentionally false statement.

As I mentioned earlier, I've started a separate thread on this.

He used the words of the Bible to demonstrate that there are problems either with Paul's account or the account in Acts.  As he said, fundamentalists can do all sorts of gymnastics to reconcile the accounts, but isn't it more likely that the guy who wrote Acts was simply wrong. 

[jeremyp]

There are plenty of religious con men out there today who convince people that they are seeing what they aren't, Benny Hinn is a case in point!

OK, you show me how to get crucified, get buried in a tomb and then two days later appear to people right as rain and have an empty tomb.

Why will no atheists show me how this was done?

Because it can't be done genuinely. Once you're dead you are dead.

So why did people think they saw and sometimes ate with Jesus on a dozen or so occasions in the 40 days after his death?

It's just stories Alan.  We might as well ask why people saw and sometimes ate with Harry Potter.

[Nearly Sane]

It didn't happen as described in the Bible.

Is that a claim or a fact? NS will call you a liar if you keep on getting them mixed up, floo!

Nice to see you have such a low opinion of Alan's intelligence that you think he gets mixed up in that way.

[~TW~]

...

And I am not saying that you believing them to be true is you lying. I am saying that in presenting them as facts when you know they are claims (even that you believe) is lying.

Yes, I know they are claims. Claims can be correct.  I believe those claims to be correct. You make certain claims you believe to be correct and you made some during the discussion on the Scottish independence vote. Some I think were incorrect. That doesn't make you a liar.

 

It would if NS was clearly portraying claims as being  facts, which as I recall he wasn't.

That Jesus was resurrected is a claim: it is clearly not a fact since there is nothing other than claims involved in the NT narrative about it. Claims are easily fabricated, and especially post-hoc, compared to facts that (being factual) can subjected to investigation, which creates a problem for you guys since 'supernatural fact' is an oxymoron without a suitable investigatory method.

You are over-estimating the value of the NT claims, again, and that you choose to believe these claims (empty tombs etc)  doesn't convert them into facts, and to portray claims as being facts is a misrepresentation..

  So Gordon you give me the impression you are afraid that this Jesus was resurrected and the story is true.But you and your friends are clutching at straws and every excuse to downgrade the story and say it was a hoax.What evidence do you have to prove it was a hoax and why would this be.

   ~TW~

It is a myth, TW, and without substantive evidence (as opposed to claim) it is indistinguishable from fiction and, as such,
really isn't a serious proposition, so it remains a myth.

Your impression is wrong, TW, since I'm no more 'afraid' of taking the resurrection of Jesus aspect of the NT seriously than I am about taking seriously the possibility that the plot-line of 'Topsy and Tim go shopping with Mummy' is actually true in reality, and in every respect of elements of the story!

Both appear to be fiction, albeit that the latter is at least grounded in reality.

You are not thinking straight Gordon.I must correct that you are not thinking full stop.I would say the 2nd beast has you well and truly in its grip you have it's mark 666 .
Goodnight.

 ~TW~

 

[Gordon]

You are not thinking straight Gordon.I must correct that you are not thinking full stop.I would say the 2nd beast has you well and truly in its grip you have it's mark 666 .
Goodnight.

 ~TW~

On another thread Spud mentioned hearing background humming - I reckon its that catchy tune from Carmina Burana, by Carl Orff.

[floo]

If the deity is male it is made from slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails!

What are little boys made of?
Slugs and snails, and puppy dogs tails,
That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice and all things nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

[Alien]

...

North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il is the best golfer in the world, hands down. On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out.

Not quite as old as your examples, Alan.  Do you not have even a niggling doubt about this report,

Yes, thanks. So how many independent witnesses do we have and do we have any good reason to believe them?

Exactly, Alan, have you any for the Resurrection?  I'm sure if you go over to N Korea, they'll provide you with as many as you'll find in the Bible to back up that story.

Mary Magdalene, the 11, Cleopas and his travelling companion, James (the Lord's half brother).

Now tell me the names of those in North Korea.

[jjohnjil]

...

North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il is the best golfer in the world, hands down. On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out.

Not quite as old as your examples, Alan.  Do you not have even a niggling doubt about this report,

Yes, thanks. So how many independent witnesses do we have and do we have any good reason to believe them?

Exactly, Alan, have you any for the Resurrection?  I'm sure if you go over to N Korea, they'll provide you with as many as you'll find in the Bible to back up that story.

Mary Magdalene, the 11, Cleopas and his travelling companion, James (the Lord's half brother).

Now tell me the names of those in North Korea.

Names in a book, Alan, that's all.  I can give you ten Korean names but we won't know any more about them than James, Cleopas or Mary Magdalene - nor can we question any of them and see if we believe their version of events.

[jeremyp]

the 11,

Do you mean the Twelve?

[cyberman]

It didn't happen as described in the Bible.

Is that a claim or a fact? NS will call you a liar if you keep on getting them mixed up, floo!

Nice to see you have such a low opinion of Alan's intelligence that you think he gets mixed up in that way.

Who is Alan?

[Nearly Sane]

It didn't happen as described in the Bible.

Is that a claim or a fact? NS will call you a liar if you keep on getting them mixed up, floo!

Nice to see you have such a low opinion of Alan's intelligence that you think he gets mixed up in that way.

Who is Alan?

Alien previously known as Alan

[BashfulAnthony]

If the deity is male it is made from slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails!

What are little boys made of?
Slugs and snails, and puppy dogs tails,
That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice and all things nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

Ah, Floo reaches her intellectual zenith!   

[Leonard James]

Ah, Floo reaches her intellectual zenith!   

Which, fortunately for her, is considerably higher than yours.