What Is God Made From?

[BeRational]

Alan

You are missing the point.

The details of the story (whatever these are) could be contrived in order to promote the cause of Jesus after his death: this being a scenario in which propaganda is a risk - 'keeping the dream alive' sums it up nicely. You keep assuming that these claims are facts and that the motivations of those you mention are all clearly understood, and you seem unable to countenance even the possibility that all might not be as it seems - some of the things you cite could be lies.

Hence the North Korean golf story - surprised you are asking me for names since in spite of it being 'official' it is quite clearly propaganda that is too ridiculous to believe: can you see the similarity?

The reason I asked for the names of the witnesses from the North Korean golf story is because there are none. In the case of Jesus' resurrection we have some. That is the one of the differences.

What witnesses do you have?

Are they in the same book?

They are separate books, e.g. Matthew, Luke, John, Acts (but written by Luke), 1 Corinthians which give details of the witnesses and Mark's gospel tells of the empty tomb (but not of anyone speaking to Jesus).

These are all part of the bible that has been edited.

Edited? In what way? Are you saying that the stuff about the resurrection was added later?

You do not even know wrote ANY of the gospels. No one does.

You may not know who wrote the gospels, but don't tar us all with the same brush, please.

And even that does not matter, as it's just words in a book, you cannot check if it is true.

Er, that is the case with all history from more than a generation ago.

So, no witnesses no external corroboration.

N/a.

As I always point out, there is masses of this sort on evidence and witness testimony for sai baba, and for alien abduction.

It would help if you read people's replies. We have discussed sai baba before and I have pointed you to examples, including videos, where he has been shown to fiddle things.

In fact there is far more, and you could even talk to living witnesses.

Videos are better.

The only reason you give the bible myth a free ride, is due to confirmation bias. It says what you want to hear.

So, how did I come be a Christian from being an atheist then?

Why can you not see this?

Because what you write is incorrect.

You do not claim to know who wrote the gospels surely?

No one knows who wrote the gospels as far as I know.

The bible has been edited and a comittee as I understand it even decided what is in and what is out.

You cannot know that anything in the bible or collection of stories bears any relation to fact.

When what is being written about contravenes the known laws of physics, you should immediately ignore it, and assume they are lying, deluded, or mistaken. What you are not allowed to do is assume that what they wrote was true. It's just not allowed.

Also, if you are to take what is written in the bible as true, why do you not accept every other loony tunes writing?

This can only be confirmation bias.

Do you believe the miracles of sai baba
Do you believe aliens are routinely inspecting the bottoms of US citizens.

If not, why not? They have more evidence than your bible, and you can even speak to living EYE witnesses.

[jjohnjil]

Alan

You are missing the point.

The details of the story (whatever these are) could be contrived in order to promote the cause of Jesus after his death: this being a scenario in which propaganda is a risk - 'keeping the dream alive' sums it up nicely. You keep assuming that these claims are facts and that the motivations of those you mention are all clearly understood, and you seem unable to countenance even the possibility that all might not be as it seems - some of the things you cite could be lies.

Hence the North Korean golf story - surprised you are asking me for names since in spite of it being 'official' it is quite clearly propaganda that is too ridiculous to believe: can you see the similarity?

The reason I asked for the names of the witnesses from the North Korean golf story is because there are none. In the case of Jesus' resurrection we have some. That is the one of the differences.

Nope - according to the report I quoted the golf feat was witnessed by security guards - I don't believe them though, since I suspect their accounts are outright propaganda.

And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Are you really saying that a few names in your 2000 year old book is better evidence than people who could be questioned today!  Of course the security guards are lying through their teeth, we can all see that it's a nonsense.   Sadly it's only you who can't see that putting a few names in a book means nothing at all!

Even if you could tell us where they lived, what they did, what they believed before all this and how we could tell they were honest ... we still wouldn't know if they were gullible or in on the scam or just scammed themselves.  They are just names that could have been thought up in a few minutes by the writers of this episode.

[BeRational]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

[Gordon]

Alan

You are missing the point.

The details of the story (whatever these are) could be contrived in order to promote the cause of Jesus after his death: this being a scenario in which propaganda is a risk - 'keeping the dream alive' sums it up nicely. You keep assuming that these claims are facts and that the motivations of those you mention are all clearly understood, and you seem unable to countenance even the possibility that all might not be as it seems - some of the things you cite could be lies.

Hence the North Korean golf story - surprised you are asking me for names since in spite of it being 'official' it is quite clearly propaganda that is too ridiculous to believe: can you see the similarity?

The reason I asked for the names of the witnesses from the North Korean golf story is because there are none. In the case of Jesus' resurrection we have some. That is the one of the differences.

Nope - according to the report I quoted the golf feat was witnessed by security guards - I don't believe them though, since I suspect their accounts are outright propaganda.

And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Who knows, and who cares since that isn't the point, as I'm sure you realise: they might not even exist, which fits with how propaganda works.

However, we have an authoritative report that says that a) there was a remarkable event, and b) there were witnesses. I'm inclined to disbelieve both a) and b)! My point is that this report isn't credible based on anecdotal report of witness who, if they exist, may be telling lies in support of their cause - there is the same risk with the NT.

[Alien]

...

You do not claim to know who wrote the gospels surely?

Yes, I have looked into it in depth and have found no good reason to doubt that it was the people to whom they were traditionally ascribed.

No one knows who wrote the gospels as far as I know.

So how does your not knowing mean I can't know.

The bible has been edited and a comittee as I understand it even decided what is in and what is out.

Which committee was this and when?

You cannot know that anything in the bible or collection of stories bears any relation to fact.

Why not?

When what is being written about contravenes the known laws of physics, you should immediately ignore it, and assume they are lying, deluded, or mistaken. What you are not allowed to do is assume that what they wrote was true. It's just not allowed.

I don't just assume it.

Also, if you are to take what is written in the bible as true, why do you not accept every other loony tunes writing?

N/a.

This can only be confirmation bias.

N/a.

Do you believe the miracles of sai baba

Did you not read my previous posts earlier today? I explained there.

Do you believe aliens are routinely inspecting the bottoms of US citizens.

Pass. I've not seen any good evidence that they are. Do you have any?

If not, why not? They have more evidence than your bible, and you can even speak to living EYE witnesses.

Bearing in mind your demonstrable errors earlier about the provenance of the NT, I would not think you are in a position to make that claim with any reliability.

I'm particularly interested in hearing about this committee and its date.

[Alien]

Alan

You are missing the point.

The details of the story (whatever these are) could be contrived in order to promote the cause of Jesus after his death: this being a scenario in which propaganda is a risk - 'keeping the dream alive' sums it up nicely. You keep assuming that these claims are facts and that the motivations of those you mention are all clearly understood, and you seem unable to countenance even the possibility that all might not be as it seems - some of the things you cite could be lies.

Hence the North Korean golf story - surprised you are asking me for names since in spite of it being 'official' it is quite clearly propaganda that is too ridiculous to believe: can you see the similarity?

The reason I asked for the names of the witnesses from the North Korean golf story is because there are none. In the case of Jesus' resurrection we have some. That is the one of the differences.

Nope - according to the report I quoted the golf feat was witnessed by security guards - I don't believe them though, since I suspect their accounts are outright propaganda.

And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Are you really saying that a few names in your 2000 year old book is better evidence than people who could be questioned today!  Of course the security guards are lying through their teeth, we can all see that it's a nonsense.   Sadly it's only you who can't see that putting a few names in a book means nothing at all!

Even if you could tell us where they lived, what they did, what they believed before all this and how we could tell they were honest ... we still wouldn't know if they were gullible or in on the scam or just scammed themselves.  They are just names that could have been thought up in a few minutes by the writers of this episode.

So who are these "people who could be questioned today"? No-one has come up with any names so why should any of us believer there are any "people who could be questioned today"?

As for the NT people, yet again, I point out that it is unlikely that they were diddling people as they were prepared to suffer and die for this belief. If they were gullible, what scenario are you proposing for how they themselves came to be "scammed"?

[Alien]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

For the reasons I have given.

[Alien]

...And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Who knows, and who cares since that isn't the point, as I'm sure you realise: they might not even exist, which fits with how propaganda works.

However, we have an authoritative report that says that a) there was a remarkable event, and b) there were witnesses. I'm inclined to disbelieve both a) and b)! My point is that this report isn't credible based on anecdotal report of witness who, if they exist, may be telling lies in support of their cause - there is the same risk with the NT.

So with your North Korean witnesses we have no good reason to believe them and every reason to disbelieve them. For this to be a valid analogy, please tell us why we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them.

You do realise that if you can't do that it is not a valid analogy, don't you?

[Gordon]

...And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Who knows, and who cares since that isn't the point, as I'm sure you realise: they might not even exist, which fits with how propaganda works.

However, we have an authoritative report that says that a) there was a remarkable event, and b) there were witnesses. I'm inclined to disbelieve both a) and b)! My point is that this report isn't credible based on anecdotal report of witness who, if they exist, may be telling lies in support of their cause - there is the same risk with the NT.

So with your North Korean witnesses we have no good reason to believe them and every reason to disbelieve them. For this to be a valid analogy, please tell us why we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them.

You do realise that if you can't do that it is not a valid analogy, don't you?

Simple.

Considering the NT claims (about a dead person not staying dead), and with a similar application of inductive reasoning as per the claim of unbelievable golf tells us, as you say, that 'we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them', since 3-day dead people always stay dead (ask any undertaker for confirmation that this is so)

Human artifice, Alan, should never be under-estimated.
 

[Alien]

...And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Who knows, and who cares since that isn't the point, as I'm sure you realise: they might not even exist, which fits with how propaganda works.

However, we have an authoritative report that says that a) there was a remarkable event, and b) there were witnesses. I'm inclined to disbelieve both a) and b)! My point is that this report isn't credible based on anecdotal report of witness who, if they exist, may be telling lies in support of their cause - there is the same risk with the NT.

So with your North Korean witnesses we have no good reason to believe them and every reason to disbelieve them. For this to be a valid analogy, please tell us why we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them.

You do realise that if you can't do that it is not a valid analogy, don't you?

Simple.

Considering the NT claims (about a dead person not staying dead), and with a similar application of inductive reasoning as per the claim of unbelievable golf tells us, as you say, that 'we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them', since 3-day dead people always stay dead (ask any undertaker for confirmation that this is so)

Human artifice, Alan, should never be under-estimated.
 

So why should I trust your statement to be honest and not the NT statements? After all, human artifice, Gordon, should never be under-estimated.

[jeremyp]

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their reporting.

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their interpretation.

Questions that you haven't even come close to answering.

[Alien]

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their reporting.

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their interpretation.

Questions that you haven't even come close to answering.

Such as?

[jeremyp]

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their reporting.

Yes, so the question is whether they are correct in their interpretation.

Questions that you haven't even come close to answering.

Such as?

The two that you mentioned in your post that I quoted.

[jeremyp]

So independent witnesses (at least 5, we count only the writers)

This is a lie.

No, it isn't. For it to be a lie it would need to be a false statement and intentionally so.

You know for a fact that two of the synoptic accounts were copied from the third.

[cyberman]

So independent witnesses (at least 5, we count only the writers)

This is a lie.

No, it isn't. For it to be a lie it would need to be a false statement and intentionally so.

You know for a fact that two of the synoptic accounts were copied from the third.

Using other sources as well, though. Luke used Mark + L + Q, Matthew used Mark + M + Q

[jeremyp]

Documents are not independent if they all rely on the same source.  At least three of the four gospels are interdependent

But those three gospels use at least four sources between them (M, Q, L and Mark). Possibly a couple of others as well.

Do you understand that M, Q and L are only defined by which gospels they appear in?  For example, any event mentioned in L does not appear in any of the other sources.  Ditto M.  Q is defined as material that appears in both Matthew and Luke but not Mark.  There's no known extant copy of Q, in fact, if Luke had a copy of Matthew, Q may only be the bits of M that Luke decided to keep.

For any given event in Jesus' life you really have a maximum of three documentary sources: John, one of Mark, M, L, Q and very occasionally Paul.  Unfortunately, they could all derive from one oral source, so we really can't say that they are independent.

what is your definition of independent, then? You can't just keep on saying "no, that doesn't count as independent" whenever a source is cited.

They must trace back to different witnesses. 

[jeremyp]

So what would there motivation be to be "creative"? So that some of them could lead a life of hardship and some get killed for it (2 Corinthians 11:23-27, for example)? So that they could be persecuted by their fellow Jews (Acts 8:1, for example)?

Do you really think Christians are the only people who have died for a cause?  People died for the cause of removing Saddam Hussein before he could use his weapons of mass destruction.  Come to think of it, people died for the cause of keeping Hussein in power.

In their creativity, how did they manage to stop the Jewish authorities from showing people Jesus' corpse?

Do you know how quickly a corpse in a mass grave decomposes? 

Maybe they did produce the body.  Perhaps that is why not all Jews are converted to Christianity.

How did they manage to convince Paul, their persecutor, to follow Jesus?

It's a damned sight easier to persuade an enemy to join your cause than to resurrect a dead body.

[Gordon]

...And their names are? Come on, Gordon. If you are going to say that this is equivalent to what is recorded in the gospels, back it up. The gospels and a couple of other NT books give names of the witnesses.

What are the names of the N. Korean witnesses?

Who knows, and who cares since that isn't the point, as I'm sure you realise: they might not even exist, which fits with how propaganda works.

However, we have an authoritative report that says that a) there was a remarkable event, and b) there were witnesses. I'm inclined to disbelieve both a) and b)! My point is that this report isn't credible based on anecdotal report of witness who, if they exist, may be telling lies in support of their cause - there is the same risk with the NT.

So with your North Korean witnesses we have no good reason to believe them and every reason to disbelieve them. For this to be a valid analogy, please tell us why we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them.

You do realise that if you can't do that it is not a valid analogy, don't you?

Simple.

Considering the NT claims (about a dead person not staying dead), and with a similar application of inductive reasoning as per the claim of unbelievable golf tells us, as you say, that 'we have no good reason to believe the NT witnesses and every reason to disbelieve them', since 3-day dead people always stay dead (ask any undertaker for confirmation that this is so)

Human artifice, Alan, should never be under-estimated.
 

So why should I trust your statement to be honest and not the NT statements? After all, human artifice, Gordon, should never be under-estimated.

So, my pointing out to you that people being potentially dishonest in support of a cause is a dishonest position for me to hold to?

[BashfulAnthony]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

[BeRational]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

[Shaker]

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

I commend your optimism, but it doesn't work 

[BashfulAnthony]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

Don't be so condescending!

[BeRational]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

Don't be so condescending!

Pointing out the truth is condescending now?

He claims that Jesus rose from the dead because it is written in a book that some people claimed to have eaten with him later.

That is crazy, and wrong.

[BashfulAnthony]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

Don't be so condescending!

Pointing out the truth is condescending now?

He claims that Jesus rose from the dead because it is written in a book that some people claimed to have eaten with him later.

That is crazy, and wrong.

And of course you know, and have the definitive answer to it all.  Not only condescending, but arrogant, too.

[BeRational]

I think Alien is a bit of a lost cause.

Logic and reason have little value.

Words in his book are really really true.

Words in other books of course he can quickly dismiss.

Cue BR leaving!

Why?

Pointing out that Alien makes obvious mistakes, may help him not make them in future.

Don't be so condescending!

Pointing out the truth is condescending now?

He claims that Jesus rose from the dead because it is written in a book that some people claimed to have eaten with him later.

That is crazy, and wrong.

And of course you know, and have the definitive answer to it all.  Not only condescending, but arrogant, too.

No I am point out that it is crazy to accept these claims as true, when we know that it is much more likely to be false.

I am not saying that Jesus DID NOT rise from the dead with certainty.

I am saying that even if he did, it is still crazy to accept these claims.