The result of the EU referendum:

[Aruntraveller]

Somebody really needs to tackle him on his about face.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-eu-brexit-supports_n_9286400.html

It is sheer naked political opportunism. Nothing else matters but Boris.

[L.A.]

If the negotiations are done correctly, say by Farage and co., then we will have no open borders. As for tariffs if they apply them we can too and we can go and trade with the rest of the world for the things that are too expensive from the EU.

Would you seriously allow Farage to be a party to serious negotiations? I wouldn't trust him to organise the proverbial piss-up in a brewery!

But I'm afraid you are missing a very important point Jack. There are a number of companies that deliberately set up manufacturing facilities in this country specifically to serve the EU market. Good sound companies that pay their taxes and employ and train tens of thousands of people in hight-tech jobs. Companies like Toyota and Nissan. And these companies set up their operations with the assumption that they would have free access to the EU market without tariffs or customs delays. Even adding what you might consider a fairly small tariff would affect their profitability - and if a company is not making a profit, it can't continue to exist for long.

But you are missing out one of our trump cards. That our leaving leaves a £15 billion or so hole in their books and if they make trade with them harder for us then our £60 billion trade excess with them will be reduced, so they could be missing say £35 billion from their economy. This for a stagnate one and who's monetary project is now a dead albatross around their necks isn't something they can absorb. Either they make the remaining members pay up for the £15 billion short fall or they cut the hand-outs to the poorer, scrounging members. Which ever way things get tougher for them.

All that assumes that the EU as a whole would act pragmatically. Unfortunately different countries have different interests and agendas and each has a veto - so it might not be so easy.

Add to this that many in the EU community agree with us about the undemocratic, unaccountable technocrats, and all the other corruption things about the EU, then there will be calls, and pressure, for radical change in the EU, or country citizens will be demanding their own referendums. Which ever way here as well the EU will be in turmoil and have little spirit to act the top dogs to teach us a lesson. They will more likely try to get our negotiations smoothly through so they can concentrate on getting their own house in order.

Everything you and your fellow pro-EUers say is based on the past strength of the EU of a bygone age where they could wield a mighty hand. They are weaker and weakening by the day and they know it. Yes they will fight like mad dogs to the bitter end but they will fail. And they will fail because their approach is out of date and of 'yesterday'.

A lot of my work as an engineer used to be involved with getting products approved. This generally involved dealing with BSI (British Standards Institute). We'd spend weeks  working through near incomprehensible pages of regulations to ensure that our product complied with safety and EMC requirements - and at times this was very frustrating - but it was necessary

Much of the EU bureaucracy performs much the same kind of role. Yes it generates a lot of tedious rules that people don't like very much - but most of them are absolutely necessary

As for being democratic - probably no less democratic than the BSI.

[jakswan]

Boris is vulnerable, he talks rot then tries to laugh it off with affable buffoonery. If she can deal with that she might get somewhere.

Surely all he has to do it get a series of quotes from Sturgeon on IndyRef and change UK for EU, although I suppose if subtract the spin and rhetoric Sturgeon doesn't actually say much.

[Nearly Sane]

Somebody really needs to tackle him on his about face.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-eu-brexit-supports_n_9286400.html

It is sheer naked political opportunism. Nothing else matters but Boris.

It is but I could do the answers for this in my sleep. Expected concessions, PM couldn't deliver, Euro and this show how things going. Lie about the 350 million and Boris is your auntie.


Andrew Marr tried it on Sunday and I thought did well but those who like Boris thought it was a Zen like performance.

When an electorate are in a place where most think all politicians are liars, catching one lying does very little

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

Makes you want to spit   Tories with their bloody smoke and mirrors, but this nonsense just highlights for me the case of remaining, don't run away, stay in and fix the problem, don't burden us with years of negotiating, we have real problems at home to sort out.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Surely all he has to do it get a series of quotes from Sturgeon on IndyRef and change UK for EU, although I suppose if subtract the spin and rhetoric Sturgeon doesn't actually say much.

Though that just causes him the opposite problem of being inconsistent the other way. He would be better leaving that to a member of the audience.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course we have to realise that it isn't the EU that is the problem, it is that we are lazy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

[L.A.]

Of course we have to realise that it isn't the EU that is the problem, it is that we are lazy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

Boris believe in only one thing - that he should be PM, and he is willing to say or do virtually anything to achieve that goal.

[Jack Knave]

And yet he gets away with it. In a formal debate structure with multiple speakers as will be the case, it's quite difficult to pin people down without looking aggressive. Boris' approval ratings are better than most in this area.


It's much easier for members of the public to score hits because they cannot really be seen as bullies. I'm glad Gonzo is looking forward to it as I'm dreading another the economy will disappear vs immigrants will eat your pet exchange. I have no real confidence on what the vote is likely to be, feels too close to call but I found myself checking out how to get Irish citizenship the other day.

I think the polls are a waste of time but do wonder if there are any shy Brexiters out there warping the analysis. And there is of course the young who say they'll vote to stay but may not actually bother. 

[Jack Knave]

Would you seriously allow Farage to be a party to serious negotiations? I wouldn't trust him to organise the proverbial piss-up in a brewery!

Of course, the guys a genius and knows the EU inside out.

But I'm afraid you are missing a very important point Jack. There are a number of companies that deliberately set up manufacturing facilities in this country specifically to serve the EU market. Good sound companies that pay their taxes and employ and train tens of thousands of people in hight-tech jobs. Companies like Toyota and Nissan. And these companies set up their operations with the assumption that they would have free access to the EU market without tariffs or customs delays. Even adding what you might consider a fairly small tariff would affect their profitability - and if a company is not making a profit, it can't continue to exist for long.

They said the same thing about not joining the Euro and now look they're still here. As I said if we leave that will weaken the EU and may force them to give us a special deal. And, as I said, there are people in the EU members states who think the same as us that the EU needs to change course radically and I think it will be this internal pressure which will be the telling factor.

All that assumes that the EU as a whole would act pragmatically. Unfortunately different countries have different interests and agendas and each has a veto - so it might not be so easy.

As I said things are changing within the EU as views start to substantially diverge and what you see a critical may become secondary.

A lot of my work as an engineer used to be involved with getting products approved. This generally involved dealing with BSI (British Standards Institute). We'd spend weeks  working through near incomprehensible pages of regulations to ensure that our product complied with safety and EMC requirements - and at times this was very frustrating - but it was necessary

Much of the EU bureaucracy performs much the same kind of role. Yes it generates a lot of tedious rules that people don't like very much - but most of them are absolutely necessary

As for being democratic - probably no less democratic than the BSI.

The BSI is not aiming at a federal state; a political union. The BSI also do not set down legal matters but are at best an advisory for best practice. So no legitimate comparison whatsoever.

[ProfessorDavey]

And there is of course the young who say they'll vote to stay but may not actually bother.

Likewise the C2DE social demographic group who like the young are much less likely to vote - but unlike the young support Brexit (in theory but also won't vote).

[ProfessorDavey]

The BSI is not aiming at a federal state; a political union. The BSI also do not set down legal matters but are at best an advisory for best practice. So no legitimate comparison whatsoever.

If you are a company manufacturing products I don't think you really care whether regulations are form the UK or from the EU, you care about the effect they have on your business. And currently manufacturers have a single set of regulations that 'buy' them into the largest economic market on the planet. If we leave we either continue to abide by EU regulations or UK manufacturers will end up with double the regulations - having to meet UK regulations for the UK market and EU regulations to export to the EU market. Businesses are going to love that pointless doubling of red tape - not.

[Jack Knave]

Likewise the C2DE social demographic group who like the young are much less likely to vote - but unlike the young support Brexit (in theory but also won't vote).

This is essentially the Labour vote which the Tories want Labour to mobilize but Corbyn keeps speaking for the Stay lot but then kind of trips them up at the same time leaving this segment of the vote a little confused. Lets hope UKIP can mop them up as they did in the GE. 

Or even some far left/unions are coming out with some good and strong arguments to leave so lets hope they have the means to reach out to them.

[jeremyp]

Unaccountable doesn't even scratch the surface. The EU is a totalitarian state.

That's a lie.

[jakswan]

I see the EU are suggesting a deal with North African countries to stop immigrants.I thought it was for freedom of movement?

[jeremyp]

I see the EU are suggesting a deal with North African countries to stop immigrants.I thought it was for freedom of movement?

Africa is not in the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

I see the EU are suggesting a deal with North African countries to stop immigrants.I thought it was for freedom of movement?

The EU is for freedom of movement for people from EU member states between EU member states. As Jeremy points out there aren't any North African countries in the EU, so I'm struggling to understand your point.

If you are implying there is some kind of double standard here perhaps you'd like to address the following.

I think from your post you want stricter control of migration from people outside the UK - do you still think, however, that there should be complete freedom of movement of UK nationals within the UK, i.e. no restriction of a Brit from Glasgow moving to London and no restriction on them taking up employment there.

If so you are adopting exactly the same approach as the EU - complete freedom of movement of nationals of that area while restricting migration from outside. If is it so great for the UK, why is it apparently a problem within the EU - I don't see it as such, but for some reason you do.

[jakswan]

Africa is not in the EU.

You are for open borders everywhere.

[jakswan]

The EU is for freedom of movement for people from EU member states between EU member states. As Jeremy points out there aren't any North African countries in the EU, so I'm struggling to understand your point.

If you are implying there is some kind of double standard here perhaps you'd like to address the following.

I think from your post you want stricter control of migration from people outside the UK - do you still think, however, that there should be complete freedom of movement of UK nationals within the UK, i.e. no restriction of a Brit from Glasgow moving to London and no restriction on them taking up employment there.

I'm for freedom of movement within a country.

If so you are adopting exactly the same approach as the EU - complete freedom of movement of nationals of that area while restricting migration from outside. If is it so great for the UK, why is it apparently a problem within the EU - I don't see it as such, but for some reason you do.

If it so great for limiting immigration from outside of the EU why it a problem limiting immigration from outside of the UK?

[L.A.]

Of course, the guys a genius and knows the EU inside out.

Farage is just an entertainer, a clown - he delivers his lines well and gives an impressive performance but he has no substance. In last nights debate he ignored many of the questions and just talked over the questioners when they tried bring him back to the question. It was a complete disgrace!

They said the same thing about not joining the Euro and now look they're still here. As I said if we leave that will weaken the EU and may force them to give us a special deal. And, as I said, there are people in the EU members states who think the same as us that the EU needs to change course radically and I think it will be this internal pressure which will be the telling factor.

Companies such as Toyota and Nissan have invested heavily in Britain to build manufacturing plant to serve the EU market. As I said, these are good sound companies, but their business plans would have assumed free access to the EU market - change that and it's all bets off. If it became too expensive to manufacture in Britain - they would have no option but to change their plans, probably shifting production to plants in mainland Europe.

As I said things are changing within the EU as views start to substantially diverge and what you see a critical may become secondary.

The fundamentals of business don't change - companies need to make a profit.

The BSI is not aiming at a federal state; a political union. The BSI also do not set down legal matters but are at best an advisory for best practice. So no legitimate comparison whatsoever.

A great many BSI standards are enshrined in law - as you would quickly discover if you tried selling unapproved electrical equipment.

Most of the 'stupid' EU laws that people complain about are equally reasonable when you look into them.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm for freedom of movement within a country.

But the UK is more than one country. So you only support freedom of movement in England, or in Scotland but not between those 2 countries do you.

[jakswan]

But the UK is more than one country. So you only support freedom of movement in England, or in Scotland but not between those 2 countries do you.

Obtuse 101.

[Nearly Sane]

Odds now back at 3/1 on for Stay

[ProfessorDavey]

Obtuse 101.

Not really - perfectly relevant.

But even if you are talking about a nation state why is it not possible for a nation state to chose to allow freedom of movement across one (or more) of its borders. All sorts of nation states do this, not just those in the EU.

[wigginhall]

This has been true of the UK and Ireland, hasn't it?  In fact, Irish people can vote in the UK, in some elections anyway.