The result of the EU referendum:

[ProfessorDavey]

Sure there are restrictions on our freedom to act, that is the price you have to pay to be a member.

I think the price is too high with regard to the EU and I'll be voting to leave.

That's fine and that's your opinion. I disagree.

But the point is that at least you understand that being a member of any larger group means that you trade off the benefits of being part of that group with some restrictions on freedom to act. And that doesn't just apply to the EU, but to loads of other groups that the UK is part of.

You seem to have this notion that you have to be in favour of joining all organisation or against joining any.

Not at all, quite the contrary - it seems to be the Brexiters who seem to think this fundamental trade off of bilateral/multilateral cooperation vs individual sovereignty at nation state level only applies to the EU and not to other organisations that we are members of - it does, it applies to them all.

Further the oft-proffered Brexit view of the fundamental and critical importance of nation state sovereignty. I disagree with this as a view, but if you do believe it to be fundamental then you need to leave not just the EU, but the UN, NATO etc etc. To suggest that state sovereignty is the be all and end all, yet quietly ignore the loss of sovereignty that is required to be a member of the UN and NATO (as examples), while using it as the main argument against the EU, either suggests a fundamental lack of understanding, or a deliberately disingenuous and hypocritical approach.

[jakswan]

That's fine and that's your opinion. I disagree.

But the point is that at least you understand that being a member of any larger group means that you trade off the benefits of being part of that group with some restrictions on freedom to act. And that doesn't just apply to the EU, but to loads of other groups that the UK is part of.
Not at all, quite the contrary - it seems to be the Brexiters who seem to think this fundamental trade off of bilateral/multilateral cooperation vs individual sovereignty at nation state level only applies to the EU and not to other organisations that we are members of - it does, it applies to them all.

It applies but doesn't apply equally. The cost of being a member of NATO in terms of sovereignty isn't the same as being a member of the EU.

Further the oft-proffered Brexit view of the fundamental and critical importance of nation state sovereignty. I disagree with this as a view, but if you do believe it to be fundamental then you need to leave not just the EU, but the UN, NATO etc etc. To suggest that state sovereignty is the be all and end all, yet quietly ignore the loss of sovereignty that is required to be a member of the UN and NATO (as examples), while using it as the main argument against the EU, either suggests a fundamental lack of understanding, or a deliberately disingenuous and hypocritical approach.

Eh, just because I don't want to be a member of a golf club because I don't like their rules doesn't mean I'm being hypocritical because I join the chess club.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack,

As I think on this it reminds me of the Scottish Referendum, divorce and then we decide who gets the kids at the weekend, the out mob will need to get their act in gear, tell us before we divorce who gets the kids.

For instance, will we get the same deal that Norway and Switzerland seem to enjoy, do we want that same deal?

Gonnagle.

Nice try Gonny but I've already covered this question. We will get a deal that suits the UK and we will not be in any of the EU groups, if I have a say on anything. The problem is who will negotiate with the EU if we leave? Probably some spag like Cameron!?

[Jack Knave]

Norway and Switzerland have to abide by pretty well all of the rules of the EU (certainly the ones the UKIPers get so agitated by in order to trade freely, yet of course have no say in those rules at all.

Not sure about Switzerland but Norway seems to pay very substantially into the EU budget, yet gets nothing directly out of it (except the ability to trade freely).

That's not true of Australia who trade with the EU.

[Jack Knave]

Still no clear benefits from you then.

That's because you can't read and you have a limited understanding of things!!!

Can't communicate with the mentally empty.

[Jack Knave]

The Euro is still with us. It has survived.

You mean in the same way a zombie is technically still with us. It looks dead to me.

That's a rather vague thing to say. Give me specific benefits. Why will our lives (yours and mine) be better. Will the government stop squeezing the NHS? will they carry on with fracking?

You're very myopic. Think in bigger terms of decades to come for our children and grandchildren.............The Tories, and Cameron are not going to be in power for ever.

Ah, you want a little England. I don't see that as a benefit.

I'm not surprised, you don't come across as very visionary, a bit of a stick in the mud.

What? Little England will be able to tell the USA, China and the EU how we want our trade to run?

Those three powers are on the way out. Don't you follow the news? Trump is on the rise because the US people are fed up with politics as usual. They'll be highly disappointed in him but the mood is changing. China is financially broke and with the rise of the middle class there people are becoming discontented with the how thing are run there, and what has been done to them to create that structural mess of tower blocks. And the EU...well, it's fucked....

Be specific. What bureaucratic regulations will go away?

Again don't you follow the news. Businesses are always complaining of the unnecessary red tape.

This island with its electoral system that saw the SNP get many more seats than UKIP on a lower proportion of the vote and that has a totally unelected second chamber?  What do you think "democracy" actually means?

Oh Jeremy. Nothing is perfect but downright EU undemocratic crap is nothing to wish for. Democracy is also a function of the institutions that go with it. It also means that the peoples' vote directly affects those that govern them and are accountable to them and work for their benefit; not for some monster in Brussels.

Again, be specific. What bureaucratic nightmares.

You need to do your homework me laddy. If you can't see the heinous malfunction of the EU then I can't help you. If you are so stupid to think that I can summarise years of looking into the EU then you must have a screw loose. It is these investigations that give me an overview of what is going on - overviews can't be dispensed in specifics.

You are deluding yourself. If we can get the Americans to listen to us for 10 minutes we might get a trade agreement with them, but the terms will be just as bad as TTIP

Are you saying we are not doing any trade whatsoever with the US at the moment?

That bunch of racist, xenophobic losers? Blimey.

Showing your true colours there, Jeremy. That bribe or pension from your EU masters must be pretty sweet for such vociferous and bilious retort.

[Jack Knave]

So the benefit of leaving the EU is that we can make products to a lower standard, is it? That sounds like it benefits nobody except the manufacturers. Except, of corse, the manufacturers will still have to make a higher standard version of their products to export to the EU.

Why waste money on a product that doesn't need it, if the country that's buying it doesn't need such high quality. That brings down costs, more are sold. What are you whinging about?

[Jack Knave]

We already have one for people coming from outside the EU.

If we try to introduce on for people from the EU we can kiss goodbye to any free trade deal, as it would be incompatible with being part of the EEA or EFTA. So points for immigration means tariffs for trade.

Are you lot deaf, hard of reading or just dumb?

I have said several times that we should not be part of any of the EU groups. But of course if that wanker Cameron does the negotiations then probably we are all done for.

[Jack Knave]

With virtually any kind of business there are economies of scale. Basically that means the more 'units' you sell the more efficiently you can operate and the greater profit you can make  and the more you can expand.

However, the size of the UK market is not very big in world terms, so the potential for our companies would be limited with such a small 'home market', but when we got unrestricted access to the EU market all that changed. Our home market is currently the whole EU.

What about the whole world. That's bigger than the EU market!!!

[jeremyp]

In work benefits for migrants, not paying child benefit to migrants.

Yes you keep going on about these migrants. Apparently, you think it's OK to make them destitute as long as they come from outside the UK. I don't.

If would allow the UK government to pass a law that prevented sales being issued from a foreign country when the activity relating to that sale is done in the UK.

If we are in the EFTA that will not be allowed.

No if the UK government wants apply a rule on tax it applies that rule on tax... when its out of the EU. There are limitations whilst it remains.

What are those limitations?

[jeremyp]

That's because you can't read and you have a limited understanding of things!!!

Actually it is because the Brexiters haven't come up with any. As soon as I ask for specifics you start with the insults.

Can't communicate with the mentally empty.

See what I mean.

[L.A.]

What about the whole world. That's bigger than the EU market!!!

But we don't have unrestricted access to the whole world market now, and we won't have if we exit. We would eventually be able to negotiate some kind of deals with various countries but we won't be in a strong position. Meanwhile, our access to the EU market will be restricted.

[Jack Knave]

Actually it is because the Brexiters haven't come up with any. As soon as I ask for specifics you start with the insults.

I gave you a list (or someone). You seemed to have erased it and then complained I hadn't given you any. What do expect from such underhand tactics from you?

[Jack Knave]

But we don't have unrestricted access to the whole world market now, and we won't have if we exit. We would eventually be able to negotiate some kind of deals with various countries but we won't be in a strong position. Meanwhile, our access to the EU market will be restricted.

That's because we are in the EU. Leave and then we can make trade deals with the rest of the world on our needs and on agreed terms that suit us not the Germans and the French.

[ProfessorDavey]

Are you lot deaf, hard of reading or just dumb?

I have said several times that we should not be part of any of the EU groups. But of course if that wanker Cameron does the negotiations then probably we are all done for.

That is of course an option, but in which case there will be consequences for trade as their will be tariffs imposed if you want to trade with any of the countries in the EEA, which basically includes all of our neighbours.

You seem to want to have your cake and to eat it - you can't. If you want free trade with the EEA you will have to abide by their rules, which includes free movement of labour. If you don't want to abide with those rules you will not be able to benefit from the free trade without tariff that the EEA countries enjoy when trading with each other.

Stop being so naive.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's not true of Australia who trade with the EU.

And are charged trade tariffs for everything they export to the EU, increasing their costs and reducing their competitiveness within the EU market.

If you want to trade without tariffs you have to sign up to the EU/EEA rules.

[Nearly Sane]

IDS does irony to the max



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35720065

[L.A.]

And are charged trade tariffs for everything they export to the EU, increasing their costs and reducing their competitiveness within the EU market.

If you want to trade without tariffs you have to sign up to the EU/EEA rules.

Exactly, JK and the other brexiters seem to imagine that we would just magically get unrestricted access to the whole world market!

[ProfessorDavey]

It applies but doesn't apply equally. The cost of being a member of NATO in terms of sovereignty isn't the same as being a member of the EU.

Really?!? Sure the EU arguably add some red tape.

Being a member of NATO may oblige us to enter a war which we might otherwise use our sovereignty to chose not to be involved in. That may result is deaths of service personnel, UK actually being attacked too etc etc. That sounds pretty significant to me.

Eh, just because I don't want to be a member of a golf club because I don't like their rules doesn't mean I'm being hypocritical because I join the chess club.

You are misinterpreting my argument.

The analogy is to say that if you refuse to become a member of a golf club because you can't accept any rules being placed on you by an external club whose rules you cannot control yet happily join a chess club which also places rules on you, then you are undoubtedly being hypocritical.

[L.A.]

IDS does irony to the max



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35720065

Quite so, I could never stand the man. Sometimes ad hominem is perfectly reasonable when you are dealing with an utter tosser.

[jeremyp]

IDS does irony to the max



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35720065

Ian Duncan Smith's back stabbing activities were partially responsible for the Tory drubbing in 1997. Then, as leader, he was too pathetic to last the distance from one general election to the next.

It's typical that he would engage in these smear tactics.

spoing!

[jeremyp]

That's because we are in the EU. Leave and then we can make trade deals with the rest of the world on our needs and on agreed terms that suit us not the Germans and the French.

So you are saying that, in situations where the mighty EU cannot get good trade agreements, we would just walk in and sign the dream deal. That doesn't seem likely to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

So you are saying that, in situations where the mighty EU cannot get good trade agreements, we would just walk in and sign the dream deal. That doesn't seem likely to me.

It is the height of either naivety or arrogance to think that China, or the USA (as examples) are going to take as much notice of a single country with a pretty tiny economy in trade negotiations, as they do to the EU, a trading block an order of magnitude larger than the UK and the largest single economy on the planet, when considered as a single economic area.

There is no doubt that the economic muscle of the EU, and therefore its attractiveness for others to trade with, means they will get a far better deal, and be much more able to call the shots than we would alone.

[L.A.]

It is the height of either naivety or arrogance to think that China, or the USA (as examples) are going to take as much notice of a single country with a pretty tiny economy in trade negotiations  . . .

Though they probably would be quite happy to 'dump' some of their surplus goods here when it suited them. (great news for home producers)

[SusanDoris]

I haven't read all the posts but have been reading JeremyP's posts with which I agree. I heard part of QT on FiveLive last night and then some of the phone-ins. I hope fervently that if, as was pointed out, it is the young who are much more in favour of remaining firmly in the EU, that all young voters will take the trouble to vote, in order to counteract the, to me,  ghastly opinions of most of the phoners-in. Thank goodness the vote is on 23rd June because I'm off to Australia for 10 days on the 24th.