The result of the EU referendum:

[SusanDoris]

I think we would be CRAZY to leave the EU. The UK is too small to stand alone in this day and age, imo.

Agreed. The far and away most important reason to remain a member of the EU is peace. The history of the 20th century should teach that.
Political, economic, etc problems must be solved through negotiation, however difficult that may be, not by war.

ETA I didn't notice date of OP until I'd posted. I very seldom join political threads.

[Rhiannon]

It's a stickied thread, Susan. This one will run and run until the referendum. Lots to discuss before then.

[Jack Knave]

Hi everyone,

The draft EU reforms are substantial says Cameron.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35467479

*************

David Cameron has said a draft deal on his reform demands delivers the "substantial change" he wants to see to the UK's relationship with the EU.

But the UK prime minister said there was "detail to be worked on" before a crunch summit on 18-19 February.

The deal, published by European Council President Donald Tusk, allows for an "emergency brake" on migrant benefits.

The BBC's Norman Smith said the document was hugely controversial and would be resisted by the PM's critics.

Mr Cameron's proposed four year ban on in-work benefits for EU migrant workers could come into force immediately if the UK votes to remain in the Union.

But it would have to be agreed by other EU nations and it would be "graduated", with more money from tax credits paid to migrants the longer they remain in the UK.

It says Mr Cameron's demand to exempt Britain from the EU principle of "ever closer union" between member states would be written into a future treaty.

There are also measures relating to protection for non-euro countries in the EU, a new way for member states to club together to block some new EU laws and on business regulations.

Mr Cameron will visit Poland and Denmark on Friday, as he embarks on a whirlwind charm offensive to persuade the other 27 EU leaders to sign up to the Tusk package in Brussels on February 18-19.

If Mr Cameron can get an agreement in February, he is expected to hold a referendum in June on whether Britain should remain in the EU.

*************

Any views?

Sriram

Yes, it's total crap and a sham, the joke of the decade!!!

[Jack Knave]

Agreed. The far and away most important reason to remain a member of the EU is peace. The history of the 20th century should teach that.
Political, economic, etc problems must be solved through negotiation, however difficult that may be, not by war.

ETA I didn't notice date of OP until I'd posted. I very seldom join political threads.

Rubbish. Look at how Greece was treated. It is now a class war.

Nearly no one in the EU and Brussels says that things are good and there is no need for change. But the problem is because of this class war there will be no agreement on how things should change and there will be a massive internal battle and bad feelings will cause people to drift apart. Better to leave now and avoid this chaos.

[Hope]

For me, the only thing we can do is stay in

Whether we are in or out, we are going to be influenced and controlled, at least to some degree, by Europe, as we are by the US, China and other parts of the world.  We can't survive as a single entity unless we want to steadily drop down all the global league tables - something that, as an aging post-industrial nation we will do anyway, but just not as fast as we would if we were to go it alone.  By aging, I mean in terms of both our population and status as the 'original' industrial nation.

We would do better to be in the Union, albeit not tied as closely as some are, and work to improve and develop that Union from within.

[Jack Knave]

For me, the only thing we can do is stay in

Whether we are in or out, we are going to be influenced and controlled, at least to some degree, by Europe, as we are by the US, China and other parts of the world.  We can't survive as a single entity unless we want to steadily drop down all the global league tables - something that, as an aging post-industrial nation we will do anyway, but just not as fast as we would if we were to go it alone.  By aging, I mean in terms of both our population and status as the 'original' industrial nation.

We would do better to be in the Union, albeit not tied as closely as some are, and work to improve and develop that Union from within.

Oh dear, so much wrong with that. You need to smell the coffee Hope and realise that what you wish for in your post just isn't possible.

[jakswan]

Agreed. The far and away most important reason to remain a member of the EU is peace. The history of the 20th century should teach that.
Political, economic, etc problems must be solved through negotiation, however difficult that may be, not by war.

ETA I didn't notice date of OP until I'd posted. I very seldom join political threads.

So if we leave the EU we'll stop negotiating and just declare war on everyone?

[jakswan]

For me, the only thing we can do is stay in

Well that literally is not true.

Whether we are in or out, we are going to be influenced and controlled, at least to some degree, by Europe, as we are by the US, China and other parts of the world.  We can't survive as a single entity unless we want to steadily drop down all the global league tables - something that, as an aging post-industrial nation we will do anyway, but just not as fast as we would if we were to go it alone.  By aging, I mean in terms of both our population and status as the 'original' industrial nation.

So we shouldn't leave because we are going to drop down league tables which we will even if we stay.

We would do better to be in the Union, albeit not tied as closely as some are, and work to improve and develop that Union from within.

Its too big to change, Cameron has tried to change it, he can't.

[SusanDoris]

Rubbish. Look at how Greece was treated. It is now a class war.

Nearly no one in the EU and Brussels says that things are good and there is no need for change. But the problem is because of this class war there will be no agreement on how things should change and there will be a massive internal battle and bad feelings will cause people to drift apart. Better to leave now and avoid this chaos.

But, as I have heard quite a few speakers say regarding trident for instance, the future is too unpredictable to take the chance of voluntarily removing ourselves from the EU just now.

Note to self: Do not read any more of this topic!!!

[Jack Knave]

But, as I have heard quite a few speakers say regarding trident for instance, the future is too unpredictable to take the chance of voluntarily removing ourselves from the EU just now.

Trident is about NATO not the EU. God help us all for people like this that have the vote!!!

[SusanDoris]

Trident is about NATO not the EU. God help us all for people like this that have the vote!!!

I hope it is obvious that although I mentioned NATO I am fully aware that it is not ppart of EU.

[Hope]

Well that literally is not true.

It is for me.  I believe that we will suffer far more by leaving the EU than by staying in.

So we shouldn't leave because we are going to drop down league tables which we will even if we stay.

I wondered how quickly someone would misrepresent waht I wrote!!  I believe that Europe's time as a 'big-hitter' is on the wane, and the UK's in particular.  We already see nations like China and Brazil, India and Japan outstripping us.  However, if the European nations work together, that wane will be slowed and the impact oin the already poor will be reduced - provided that we get good governance both as individual nations and as a Union.  The latter is a problem, I accept, especially as so much EU legislaton still seems to put German and French priorities at its centre

Its too big to change, Cameron has tried to change it, he can't.

Yetr, it changes ever time a new member joins.  It's rather like these organisations who run special deals to draw in new members and then ignores their needs once they've joined.  Unfortunately, in a sense, it will never change for those already in except by those within kicking up a fuss.

[jakswan]

I wondered how quickly someone would misrepresent waht I wrote!!  I believe that Europe's time as a 'big-hitter' is on the wane, and the UK's in particular.  We already see nations like China and Brazil, India and Japan outstripping us.  However, if the European nations work together, that wane will be slowed and the impact oin the already poor will be reduced - provided that we get good governance both as individual nations and as a Union.  The latter is a problem, I accept, especially as so much EU legislaton still seems to put German and French priorities at its centre

The only person misrepresenting you is yourself, I congratulate you now you have better explained your position.

In what way does Brazil and China outstrip us and why should we care?

I do care about the standards of living that people in this country enjoy, I don't give a dam if China are catching up, in fact quite I see that as a good thing.

The already poor in the EU are not mainly located in the UK but elesewhere.

Yetr, it changes ever time a new member joins.  It's rather like these organisations who run special deals to draw in new members and then ignores their needs once they've joined.  Unfortunately, in a sense, it will never change for those already in except by those within kicking up a fuss.

Are you saying the EU has changed, if so in which way?

[wigginhall]

I must say, I feel deeply resentful that Cameron is trying to bind together the Tory party via this referendum.  So I am being asked to vote, so that his own Euro-skeptics can be neutralized?  What a load of smoke and mirrors. 

[Rhiannon]

I must say, I feel deeply resentful that Cameron is trying to bind together the Tory party via this referendum.  So I am being asked to vote, so that his own Euro-skeptics can be neutralized?  What a load of smoke and mirrors.

Yes, that is definitely a part of it. That and hoping to see UKIP dead in the water. All about domestic politics rather than wanting reform, whether it's needed or not.

[wigginhall]

And the 'negotiations' are a con-trick.   Cameron obviously has not obtained what he wanted, so he is using a kind of cosmetic gloss to spin them.   On the other hand, I suppose this is what politicians do - I think Harold Wilson was a master of this, I'm thinking of the last referendum on Europe. 

[Rhiannon]

And the 'negotiations' are a con-trick.   Cameron obviously has not obtained what he wanted, so he is using a kind of cosmetic gloss to spin them.   On the other hand, I suppose this is what politicians do - I think Harold Wilson was a master of this, I'm thinking of the last referendum on Europe.

Whatever he's got will be watered down to nothingness in the following weeks by the other member states anyway.

[Jack Knave]

I hope it is obvious that although I mentioned NATO I am fully aware that it is not ppart of EU.

Susan put your reading glasses on and reread the post of yours I replied to.

You did also say you weren't coming back to this thread.

[Jack Knave]

I must say, I feel deeply resentful that Cameron is trying to bind together the Tory party via this referendum.  So I am being asked to vote, so that his own Euro-skeptics can be neutralized?  What a load of smoke and mirrors.

Then vote to leave.

[jeremyp]

Then vote to leave.

Vote to leave the EU because you want to stick one on Cameron?

This is why we shouldn't have referendums: people have all sorts of stupid reasons that cause them to make the wrong decision.

[Jack Knave]

Vote to leave the EU because you want to stick one on Cameron?

This is why we shouldn't have referendums: people have all sorts of stupid reasons that cause them to make the wrong decision.

No. Vote to leave because it is the right thing to do.

[jeremyp]

No. Vote to leave because it is the right thing to do.

You told somebody to vote to leave just because they wanted to stick one on David Cameron. Surely you recognise that is bad advice.

People should vote based on the evidence of whether it would be a good idea to leave or not, economically and socially. They should not vote to leave based on hatred of one politician and your advice that they should is reprehensible to say the least.

[Jack Knave]

You told somebody to vote to leave just because they wanted to stick one on David Cameron. Surely you recognise that is bad advice.

People should vote based on the evidence of whether it would be a good idea to leave or not, economically and socially. They should not vote to leave based on hatred of one politician and your advice that they should is reprehensible to say the least.

I was just trying to help you in the right direction. If you had to mention Cameron in the way that you did then quite obviously you haven't done your homework for if you had then whether you were voting on the same team as someone who you don't like wouldn't be an issue. You would be just pleased within yourself on the matter.

[jakswan]

When is the leader of the opposition going to speak strongly on this issue?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

When is the leader of the opposition going to speak strongly on this issue?

Nice argument that it is not the perpetrators but those who fail to stop them who are really responsible.

Typically Conservative though...thinking you are an oppressed minority when in fact you are the Government and the people wot vote them in.